Dark blue OR & gun control

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by DarkJello, Oct 1, 2015.

  1. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    Funny enough, you know what else isn't illegal to own and operate in the US? Flamethrowers. There's no federal law against them at all, regardless of how powerful it is. You can walk around downtown with a flamethrower on your back and the police can't do a thing about it (unless you happen to use it). It's also perfectly legal to own and operate a tank in most states, provided the tank's cannon is disabled. If you replace the metal treads with rubber ones and obtain a special permit, you can legally drive it on the street as you would a car. Costs about $40,000 to buy an old ex-Soviet tank, putting it in the same ballpark as your average car. So the question is: why don't we see more criminals riding around on tanks rigged out with flamethrowers?
     
  2. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    That sounds expensive, complicated, and outside the knowledge base of even mid-level criminals.
     
  3. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    OR gets a D+ from The Brady Campaign. But 32 states scored worse.

    http://www.bradycampaign.org/2013-state-scorecard

    Guns&Ammo felt that OR was the 28th best state for gun owners.

    Oregon’s “shall issue” CCW law ranked 38th in the U.S. but only because of poor reciprocity. The state has relatively strong use-of-force laws and preempts cities and towns from passing their own restrictions on gun owners. NFA items are legal as long as federal law is followed, and the state places no restrictions on tactical-looking firearms or magazines. The bad news is that a bill was just passed by the legislature and signed by Gov. Kate Brown that will require background checks to be performed on firearm transfers among private individuals.

    http://www.gunsandammo.com/network-topics/culture-politics-network/best-states-for-gun-owners-2015/

    And I found this map by Rolling Stone to be quite useful.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/feature/gun-control/map
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  4. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    I think that's rather natural. The question however is whether or not violent crimes (with and without guns total) is higher or lower.

    When guns are more readily available, they'll be involved in more incidents, that's a given. The real question is whether or not that's a real problem when looking at overall violent crime.
     
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  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Even the Son of God has 2nd Amendment rights!
     
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  6. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    Right, that'd be a problem. But I feel like you might not have received the point that I intended here. I'm not saying anything about what laws should/shouldn't be in place or what jurisdiction the police should/shouldn't have. My perspective is that mass shootings are manifestations of an underlying issue, one that isn't being dealt with in discussions of whether we should have more or less gun control. I think it's a cultural issue, and no one seems willing to examine that side of the problem.

     
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    And accounting for the level of violence? Surely a mass shooting should count as more than a non-fatal stabbing?
     
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  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I wasn't arguing anything really. More that I was providing evidence for the fact that something is wrong with the way the system deals with people with these sort of conditions and their ability to own guns.
     
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  9. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    Sure, just like a fatal stabbing (or series thereof) should count differently from a non-fatal shooting; though it's worth noting that the Harvard study and similar were sourcing specifically homicides (which also speaks to number of victims rather than perps), rather than violent crime in general.

    Likewise with the chart I posted with US having well enough below the Median (even with the mass shootings and all) of Homicides.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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  10. Leadrz

    Leadrz I need me some PIE!

    XD
     
  11. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    I'm not labeling them crazy. The people assigning them psychotropic drugs are. And my primary point was that I don't think the drugs are helping (and in some cases may actually be making it worse).

    Not also I'm not labeling "everyone" that does this as such either. It's simply a known fact that most (not all) perpetrators of mass shootings have been taking these drugs.

    It's also worth noting, in regard to Sok's point, that at least some of them did not obtain their guns legally, going through a Straw Purchase or similar illegal act in order to obtain the guns.
     
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  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The full article has a lot of charts, lots of them pretty interesting, but I'll just point out that most of the countries above the US are the ones you'd expect to be murderific, so not exactly a great list to be in the middle of.
     
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  13. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    You guys are making this a logical and successful thread. Kudos, literally, to one and all!

    Edit:

    Decided 5 seconds after adding a cookie pic that it was in poor taste. My bad.
     
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Yea, in some cases, it was a relative that gave them a weapon, or they "borrowed" one from a "responsible" gun owner, etc. These things are going to happen. As I said, I don't think the research is conclusive on whether gun control really does anything, but politics being what it is, you have to at least give lip service when tragedy happens.
     
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  15. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    Oh, okay. I thought you were using "crazy" in your post the same way the media uses it. This explanation makes sense and I agree that there are some extreme problems with psychiatric over-reliance on prescriptions as treatment.
     
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  16. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    The horrific Sandy Hook shooting in CT is a case in point. Guy did not want to wait for a gun, as mandated by the state, so he killed his mom and used her guns to slaughter all those innocent little kids. CT has very, very, very strict gun control laws. No plan is perfect. No law will stop all of these terrible tragedies. I wish we, as a country, would focus a lot MORE energy on the mental health part.

    I had to wait about 1 week after paying for my 9mm Glock semi-auto pistol before I could take it home. That is fine with me. On the other hand, I only had to wait 15-20 minutes before I was out the door with my beautiful pump action shotgun. It is a mofo for anyone trying to hurt/kill me and mine. Both are locked up safe and sound. Hopefully I never ever never have to use them.

    Thoughts and prayers to ALL the victims and their friends and fam. I always feel bad for the shooter's fam/friends, as they get forgotten by many.
     
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  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Were they currently taking them? Or did they stop taking them?
     
  18. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    It sure seems like most of these shooters have/had extensive mental health problems. Not all, but most. Gonna have to look that up.
     
  19. Ohmin

    Ohmin Forum Royalty

    *shrug*

    Good thing it's not then.

    But really, I think the larger point to be taken from all this is that the problem(s) regarding these things is that the cultural and economic situation is the larger part of all this. Remember that close to 50% of all homicides where the victim is known (only 2/3rds of homicides are known as recorded by the FBI, stats in another thread) were done by Black people, which is a very small portion compared to the rest of the US. And again, I don't think that's some "Black people are evil murderers!" thing but rather than a majority of Blacks have historically had worse economic standing than much of the rest of the nation, and possibly some greater gang influence in some cases.

    And a lot of these happen in places like Chicago, a place with stricter gun regulations. There may or may not be a cause/effect thing here, but the point is that specific areas where socio-economic conditions are bad are causing the spikes in the US rate.

    Which may or may not be a problem with the system, but it's largely unrelated to proliferation of gun ownership (rather in the US gun owner-ship areas and the like receive generally lower homicide rates, which may be another issue but...)

    All told the "cause" of crime and what "deters" crime is an incredibly complex issue. For the most part, allowing law-abiding citizens to have guns seems to, if anything, reduce overall homicide rates, albiet it naturally raises gun-related deaths as well. But by far the main issue is the level of "conflict" in the area (and to lesser degrees, the reliability and effectiveness of police, and other such factors).

    Of course, that such pockets of violence exist in the US is certainly something one can criticize.

    Sure, but I think it gets overblown for the sake of advancing political agenda.

    That'd probably be a case-by-case thing, I don't have all the specifics right now.
     
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  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    My question here would not be "is it perfect?" Of course nothing is perfect. But the question we should be asking is, "What helps?"
     
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