Demonic Wag

Discussion in 'Underdepths' started by Woffleet, May 10, 2014.

  1. allyorbase

    allyorbase I need me some PIE!

    To clarify my take: current Wag is an extremely unique and interesting rune. Your idea turns it into an extremely risky, extremely predictable (and thus mitigatable) shapeshifting rune that does almost nothing for its first 5-10 rounds of play.

    I guess I have a problem with this pervasive notion that Pox can only be saved by broad, violent overhauls (a la Owl's planned upheaval). In that vein, completely retooling Demonic Wag from the ground up should be the last idea on the table. Slash and burn is no way to balance a strategy game.

    EDIT: Right now, you could adjust a number of aspects of Wag, if you want to tinker:
    • Cost of Wag?
    • Champions near death are no longer bloodied?
    • Level of spawned Gahlroon to 1?
    • Impervious for only 1 turn? Maybe even none at all?
    • Change the base abilities and upgrades for wag?
    • Lower the SPD of Wag?
    • Give Font Ignorance, Pariah, or Liability, etc.?

    See? You don't need to pheonix-burn it. Baby steps.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  2. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    Throwing bombs every turn maybe even twice a turn is very powerful
     
  3. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    My guess is that their calculator is overvaluing melee relative to range, either through it's range calculations or by valuing stats on a melee unit the same as stats on a ranged unit. Gedden explained that the "range" adjustment is based on the total number of squares that can be attacked by a unit. For example, a 1 range unit can attack 4 squares. A 1-2 range unit can attack 12 squares, etc. I think there's more to valuing range that just the number of squares it can attack (although that is certainly relevant too).

    For example, that extra space of range at 1-2 allows bypassing of lots of defenses. To use another example, a 1-3 range champ covers 24 spaces but a 4-5 range champ covers 36 spaces (1.5 times as many). I haven't fully thought it through, but I'm not sure whether a 4-5 range unit is worth 1.5 times the range value of a 1-3 champ. Another way to think about it is that you can have the best stats in the world on a melee bruiser, but he'll never get to use any of them because he has to gap close before being blown up. Anyway, I don't have an answer, but my guess is that's what's going on with blackguard.
     
  4. allyorbase

    allyorbase I need me some PIE!

    I'm less concerned with power than I am with being interesting. Demonic Wag is an extremely unique unit. You want to take away it's whole appeal. I repeat: Why start with a complete redesign? It's not necessary. I pointed out a great number of options for tweaking the wag, but you seem married to scrapping its current build entirely.
     
  5. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Wasn't it Octopi that decided that range 1-3 was too powerful? I think they were the ones that made it so nothing except for the diplomats had 1-3. I remember that Moga Assault Team had its range changed as a result of the decision.
     
    allyorbase likes this.
  6. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    no its just a thought i had. I don't have a problem with any of your ideas
     
  7. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    recharge
     
  8. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    That's before my time. But my basic point is that there's to valuing range than just the number of squares that a unit can cover. The 1-3 example vs. 4-5 was just easy to calculate.
     
  9. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    It costs 80 freaking nora and spawns an 81 nora unit upon death. You people are ******** if you think wag isnt op as hell
     
  10. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    I'm not saying it isn't op, but a level 1 Ghalroon isn't worth 81 Nora. More like 70.
     
  11. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    actually, a level 1 ghalroon spawned with impervious 2 were you forced your opponent to kill the wag is better than a plain, well costed ghalroon, and that without counting added benefits (harrassing, favor, contesting, controlling, DB).
     
  12. TheNidhogg

    TheNidhogg I need me some PIE!

    You can still sacrifice or ret it as an 81 nora unit, so it definitely is worth at least as much.
     
  13. Baalzamon

    Baalzamon I need me some PIE!

    Tiny can make any rune seem like it is OP.
     
  14. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    what if
    Nora: 60
    spd 6
    atk 8
    def 0
    rng 1
    hp 35

    Fire bomb rank 1
    recharge
    trickster
    attack charged rank 1, rank 2,
    Gahlroon form, adaptation

    thoughts?
     
  15. allyorbase

    allyorbase I need me some PIE!

    Then give the spawned Gahlroon Bloodless, or Pariah, even. Or, the most obvious solution to the primary gripe: don't give the spawned Gahlroon Impervious when it spawns. A lot of the problems players seem to have with Wag could be fixed simply by saying, "okay, well, what if it didn't do that?" That's where Owl should start with balancing Wag.
     

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