Design Discussion: Upgrade "Packages"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, May 6, 2017.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    This is a very "random idea" thing that I wanted to run by players.

    The idea is to create ability packages in upgrades, often combining both negative and positives, rather than individual abilities.

    The advantage here is that it can allow for more diverse upgrade options.

    The disadvantage is that it is technically ability bloat.

    ~

    Example

    Undecided Dude

    DMG 10
    SPD 6
    RNG 1
    DEF 0
    HP 45

    Class: None
    Race: Dwarf

    Attack: Physical

    Upgrade Set 1
    Phantom Dash
    Leap 3
    Charge 3​

    Upgrade Set 2
    Marauder - This champion has Class: Warrior, -1 DEF, Fear 3 and Manic.
    Duelist - This champion has Class: Monk, Scrapper, +1 SPD, and -3 DMG.
    Crusher - This champion has Class: Brute, +5 DMG, Weighty and Strike.​

    So this means that this one champion would have 3 dramatically different builds. This wouldn't be used for all champions, or even very many, but it could be an option as appropriate on specific units.

    So as a more "proper" example, consider something like this:

    Matriarch Sarinda (Theoretical Example)

    DMG 10
    SPD 6
    RNG 4-5
    DEF 1
    HP 42

    Attack: Psychic
    Stitched
    Split Hero
    Death Toll


    Upgrade Set 1
    Sarinda the Eradicator: This champion has Eradicate, Violence Charged, Reclaim Reclaims.
    Sarinda the Mother: This champion has Reconstruct: Blackguard and Deconstruct.
    Sardina the Corruptor: This champion has +1 MAX RNG, Corruption and Rabid 1.

    The idea here is that each upgrade set gives a concrete option for the direction of this champion, and in particular for combination abilities, it's really nice because now we are not stuck with asking you to choose the 2 things on both upgrade sets and having to forgo all other choices.

    Upgrade Set 2 could be 3 more 'generic' things, or it could even be stat buffs like letting you choose between SPD or more DMG, for example.


    (Note: These are examples for illustrative purposes and not intended to be "balanced" and obviously I haven't calculated costs.)
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    aseryen, Braxzee, iPox and 2 others like this.
  2. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Depends would those upgrade "packages" be set in stone ? Would I always have to take manic, fear 3 and -1 def for warrior or could I interchange them with other abilities available for that class ?

    Another question

    Would those abilities be all I could have or am i picking 2 similar to how the upgrade path works now ? Would their be class specific abilities where we couldn't go outside that build ?

    Example:
    Archer- far shot, piercing shot
    warrior- block, pummel

    Would it be a preset of hundreds of abilities for each rune depending on class ?

    I feel like this would eliminate a bit of depth giving specific class sets unless we had a wide array of abilities to pick from for each class, even then it might make champs feel the same ?
     
    aseryen likes this.
  3. Kampel

    Kampel I need me some PIE!

    Which would be the limits? like no new classes, abilities that do not exceed X nora, only 1 negative condition one ability one stat..
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    Yea, no new classes obviously, but I don't think anything else would be a specific limitation, it'd depend on the unit it's going on.
     
  5. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    How many abilities would each class have access to, and would this take a significant amount of work on your end ?
     
  6. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff The King of Potatoes

    This could be a fun nightmare to balance, but besides that I think i like the idea.
    18 Base classes, unlimited subclasses, think it need to be somewhat limited by class/faction somehow, got me to open an old RPG book about alchemists.
    Class: Tinkerer
    Subclass: Royal Alchemist
    Perks:
    - Holy Armaments
    - -5hp

    Class: Tinkerer
    Subclass: Inorganic Alchemist
    Perks:
    - Boost Construct
    - Mason 2

    Class: Tinkerer
    Subclass: Theocratist
    Perks:
    - Hollow trail

    Class: Tinkerer
    Subclass: Geomancer
    Perks:
    - Grant: Tunnel Earth
    -

    Class: Tinkerer
    Subclass: Grand Vizier
    Perks:
    - Cackle
     
  7. DukeofDunks

    DukeofDunks I need me some PIE!

    Its interesting but seems like a balancing nightmare especially since many of the current upgrades are heavily ingrained and tuned for that specific champion to function(skeletal bezerker, blood fiend, crazed warmandril, etc. Theres no choice on these runes, they need their current abilities)

    Definitely interesting. Id advise against putting something as debilitating as weighty on brutes though, many of them require freedom of movement and already have plenty of damage(half the kanen roster for example)
     
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    They aren't meant to be on all Brutes or anything.

    The point is that I have make a champion say...

    Undecided Dude

    DMG 10
    SPD 6
    RNG 1
    DEF 0
    HP 45

    Class: None
    Race: Dwarf

    Attack: Physical

    Upgrade Set 1
    Phantom Dash
    Leap 3
    Charge 3​

    Upgrade Set 2
    Marauder - This champion has Class: Warrior, -1 DEF, Fear 3 and Manic.
    Duelist - This champion has Class: Monk, Scrapper, +1 SPD, and -3 DMG.
    Crusher - This champion has Class: Brute, +5 DMG, Weighty and Strike.​
     
    aseryen likes this.
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    As for how much work it is, the packages wouldn't contain new abilities as they'd be packages of stats and existing abilities. However, it IS technically a new ability in terms of database and code, even if there's no new functionality.
     
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  10. DukeofDunks

    DukeofDunks I need me some PIE!

    Ah, misread. Got it stuck in my head that those upgrades are only meant for specific classes.

    Well if the upgrades are meant for specific runes in the future i dont see why it would be too crazy, It wouldnt even have to be ability bloat since with a package youre getting a lot of abilities per upgrade, therefore limit the amount of core/base abilities on the rune and leave the idenity of that rune up to the player.

    Though for the basic ball of stats to work with three different identities it would need be aggressively average, which means were there a lot of runes with this design, theyd all feel the same. It wouldnt feel like the undecided dude the dwarf, it would feel like marauder with a dwarf skin because undecided dude the draksar has the same stats and possibly the same upgrade making it the same rune in two different factions(and faction identity is poxnoras biggest strength imo)

    Its neat but i'd use it sparingly. Possibly on a rune with many identities. (IE; mutant in SL undergoing rapid change, Martial arts master with different styles, FW building a flesh golems and swapping out parts, IS building actual golems and doing the same)

    Hell, they could possibly do it after theyre deployed so they can adapt to what the player needs. As an example with the flesh golem, Its upgrade system is based off charges and it gains charges based on death since this is a FW rune and youre using corpses to change parts. Its first, free upgrade is duelist since the FW player is using this rune to run around font capping and wants the extra speed. Once its duty is done it will have some charges from the fight for mid font, so it scoots to front line with its speed and morphs into a marauder, applying fear and getting a manic attack.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
    aseryen likes this.
  11. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    I do like it but i feel like this would be a step away from the accessibility we'd been trying to accomplish.
     
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  12. NevrGonaGivUup

    NevrGonaGivUup I need me some PIE!

    These types of choices already exist in the game- just look at draksar shifter, the elf shapeshifter, or that boghopper that trains tads.

    They can change their role on the fly, making them more interesting than if they had to choose their form in their upgrades.

    Also, we already have multiple champions for each role in a bg. We don't need one champ that can fit multiple roles.


    On a positive note, I do like the idea of a duelist champion - it's an interesting but mostly unexplored archetype.
     
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  13. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY The King of Potatoes

    I would say, this has a very good place for heroes and avatars. Heroes really should be more versatile than they are, and would benefit greatly from multiple build paths.

    I would say for others, it simply isn't necessary, and will cause headaches. I'm guessing you are doing / thinking of this to help make designing themes into a central part of the game a smoother transition. However, I think it should stick to heroes, and I think this idea will be met with praise and open arms if it does only apply to heroes/supers.

    Heroes are sort of central to lore and should be able to slip into themes more easily.
     
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  14. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    I like the idea of heroes having multiple upgrade paths and it might give them their unique feel back. Currenty the only heroes I run ever are xulos, talgar, menelaus, grimlic, bastion and that's it. Does forglar even have a meta hero anymore ?

    @Sokolov

    I could see the class system on all deck limit 1 units, other then that I feel it would be very hard to implement something like this when pox has so many abilities.
     
    aseryen likes this.
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    This is not intended to be a class based system.
     
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  16. Vote Kanye 2020

    Vote Kanye 2020 Better-Known Member

    I like the idea, means you can play runes more suited to your own preference and play style.

    Also agree that this would be cool if it was exclusive to heroes, or unique/ important lore characters.
     
  17. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Sorry

    Marauder
    duelist
    crusher

    Sounds all class based, what would you prefer to call it lol ?
     
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    So as a more "proper" example, consider something like this:

    Matriarch Sarinda (Theoretical Example)

    DMG 10
    SPD 6
    RNG 4-5
    DEF 1
    HP 42

    Attack: Psychic
    Stitched
    Split Hero
    Death Toll

    Upgrade Set 1
    Sarinda the Eradicator: This champion has Eradicate, Violence Charged, Reclaim Reclaims.
    Sarinda the Mother: This champion has Reconstruct: Blackguard and Deconstruct.
    Sardina the Corruptor: This champion has +1 MAX RNG, Corruption and Rabid 1.

    The idea here is that each upgrade set gives a concrete option for the direction of this champion, and in particular for combination abilities, it's really nice because now we are not stuck with asking you to choose the 2 things on both upgrade sets and having to forgo all other choices.

    Upgrade Set 2 could be 3 more 'generic' things, or it could even be stat buffs like letting you choose between SPD or more DMG, for example.
     
  19. Skeezick

    Skeezick Forum Royalty

    eradicate without deconstruct?
    hold me somebody :'(
     
    SPiEkY likes this.
  20. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    I think that the Corruptor version being called "SARDINA" rather than "SARINDA" is the best part of this example. As for the topic itself - will share my thoughts about it in a few days.
     

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