Discussion on several rune reworks

I would like to point out that we could help the devs by discussing on potential design/reworks on our shoebox runes. This would save them time, and give them a base understanding of what the playerbase thinks of X champ. Other factions are doing it, I don't see why we shouldn't help the devs in brainstorming.

Goal: Redesign/Rework a champ to fulfill a gap in an SP theme. How to redesign? Strip off a champ's base and upgrade abilities, and see what the stats cost, and start from there by adding X number of abilities depending on the runes' rarity.

E.g, my take on some passive champs:

Aspect of Chaos (LEGENDARY - 4 abilities at base)
Since we know devs are okay with eliminating Eternal Storm, why not re-design this champion? From the artwork, I can see this guy going into electricity. And they do need several more synergies, and Aspects should have 1 unique ability, right? 'Grow', 'Furious Attacks' etc2

Aspect of Chaos (STARTING Point: 92-75 = 17 Nora)
0/5/1/0/35 (+12HP for +10Nora, +1SPD for +8Nora)

Unique Ability (At the beginning of your turn, opposing champions within 5 spaces of this unit moves 2 spaces towards it. When an opposing champion becomes engaged to this champion, it gains Lumbering for 2 turns. This champion has Wind Aura) (+12 Nora) -> [wind aura = 6 nora, fascinate 3 nora)
Storm Field (+10 Nora)
Absorb (+8 Nora)
Mobility (+4 Nora)

Ability 1:
Consume (+3 Nora)
Electricity Eater (+5 Nora)
Storm Acolyte (+10 Nora)

Ability 2
Chain Lightning (+7 Nora)
Pull (+10 Nora)
Gravity Well (+10 Nora)

Stats = +35 Nora
Base Abilities = +34 Nora
----------------------------- +
69 Nora
Range for Upgrades = +10-20 Nora
END Point: 79-89 Nora

Albino Fesh (RARE - 3 abilities at base)
Looking at all the new runes, there is an ability that is really similar to this champion's. Take Prisoner. Why not exchange Mind Control over Take Prisoner, then we can add additional utility and rework this guy?

Albino Fesh (STARTING Point: 91-71 = 20 Nora)
0/6/1/0/35 (+12HP for +9Nora)

Take Prisoner (+10 Nora)
Psychic Ping 2 (+25 Nora)
Evasive 2 (+6 Nora)

Ability 1:
Amplify: Psychic (+4 Nora)
Psychic Aura 3 (+6 Nora)
Boost (+7 Nora)

Ability 2
Hidden: Water (+3 Nora)
Paralyze (+4 Nora)
Camaraderie (+5 Nora)

Stats = +21 Nora
Base Abilities = +33 Nora
----------------------------- +
57 Nora
Range for Upgrades = +7-12 Nora
END Point: 64-69 Nora

Those are examples, if you have any ideas on any reworks, I think it might just help the devs, as a reference for future updates. Regardless of any real implementation, I think these kinda threads can be a great help (discussions and debates are there to deviate from imbalanced reworks).

 

I approve electricity and fesh theme need to be expandedon. Atm they can only be played as a split. I have a is sp electricity split with lightning ele. Fury of the storm and magnus / paralizing strike modual.

And @alegre08 plays a cool sp fw fesh split

 

I'd never play a 79 nora passive 35 hp unit...
ed: Oh wait, 47 HP 7 SPD? But why would it need 7 SPD? It can only cast Storm Field and whatever it takes on upgrade with that AP.

That Albino Fesh would be godly tho. Psychic Ping unit immune to range.

 

I don't see elusive lasting long on Albino Fesh if it is changed, it will get nerf cried hard.

 

hahahah ye that would be godly. In any case, that's how the formula work iirc. So in theory with the current ability costs, you can actually have a low 70 elusive ping monster. Maybe this is where the manual adjustments comes in

but yeah, come to think of it its going to be op. Anyway, so no ideas on any SP runes? You can just state whatever champ needs a rework, or is lacking something for transparency purposes

 

Why are they eliminating eternal storm? It's awesome! Should have Unstoppable, too. Tornadoes can't be Ensared, Stunned, Slowed, Paralyzed, Rooted, Knockback, and AP lost

 

They need to rework some of the hordes of physical attacking Moga

 

Btw AoC is 5 spd (+1 so its 6). Typo..

Any clarification as to which moga specifically and how to rework it? Coz if its the alt dmg that you're worried about, there's always Ionization as a surprise to 1 round Onew/Nora w/ a hardhitting ghern or Protection-targeted champs

 

Nah, it's not about alt dmg, it's just that they don't get played because they're bad and have nothing to bring to a deck.

I posted the following the Crate and sok liked it so hopefully one or two will get something in a patch or two:

"In need of help: Moga Trigger, Moga Trailblazer, Moga Netter, Moga Babbler, Buckethead, Moga Razor, Moga Spellsnare (88 nora for 29 hp unit yall), Moga Spark, Moga Zealot, Reckless Spellhack"

 

Another one: DJINNS

1) The cost for Gift of the Djinns is not consistent. Its basically a grant that has a drawback, yet some are inconsistent with others.

E.g, Gift of the Djinn: Dao (+6 Nora) for Reflexes 3.
Now, Grant: Reflexes 1 is +5 Nora, while Reflexes 1 is +3 Nora, so assume that a "Grant:X" ability gets a +2 Nora premium. Now, Since Reflexes 3 is +9 Nora, and "Grant" is +2 Nora, so we assume the racial limitation on Gift of the Djinn: Dao is costed as (11 Nora - 6 Nora = 5 Nora discount)

To solidify this estimate, we try and apply the same discount to other Gift of the Djinns:
Gift of the Djinn: Ifrit (Berserker 3) [+10 Nora]
Berserker 3 = 14 Nora
+'Grant: x' premium = 2 Nora
Gift of the Djinn: Ifrit (16 Nora - 10 Nora = 6 Nora discount)

Gift of the Djinn: Dew (Regen 3) [+4 Nora]
Regen 3 = 7 Nora
+'Grant: x' premium = 2 Nora
Gift of the Djinn: Dew (9 Nora - 4 Nora = 5 Nora discount)

However,
Gift of the Djinn: Marid (Leap 3) [+10 Nora]
Leap 3 = 8 Nora
+'Grant: x' premium = 2 Nora
Gift of the Djinn: Dew (10 Nora - 10 Nora = 0 Nora discount)

Now that's the first issue that I find a bit odd...

2) Flight not incorporated as a Djinn racial ability, yet it takes 1 slot in its Base Ability

Flight (6 Nora). Not sure about this, but I feel like that -6 Nora on base cost could really push them into more cost efficiency. When I see a racial Flight, the thing that came to mind was Faeries: Fairy Flight and Dragon: Dragonflight.

Fairy Flight's only downside is getting Defenseless when its at <15HP. Those certain limitations on 15HP and Defenseless is what gives that -5 Nora (Fairy Flight is 1 Nora). In my opinion, one-rounding a 15 HP champion with racially low defense, is not a problem. The defenseless bonus can definitely be ignored. The only thing that's hard is actually catching a faerie at melee-range. So in essence, they are getting a major discount for something that's hardly limiting/restricting.

Dragon Flight's 8 Nora. For Flying (6 Nora) + temporary Aerial Supremacy (7 Nora) for 6 turns + 2AP (Invigorate 1 is 5 Nora) = 8 Nora. The only drawback here is you have to deploy a Dragon. The discount placed here is ((6+7+5)-8) = 10 Nora. This is by far outclasses Gift of the Djinn.

I don't see why we can't just incorporate Flight into Gift of the Djinn? and increase the discount Something that would serve the same purpose as Fairy Flight to incorporate a discounting value. Something like:

Gift of the Djinn: X (Target champion with Race: Elemental or Hyaenid within 7 spaces gains XXX until this ability is used again. If a champion is Gifted by this ability, this champion gains Flight).

So as long as a friendly champion is targeted with a Gift of the Djinn, the Djinn gains Flight. Small drawback of not able to fly from the get-go, but still a restriction and should deserve a miniscule discounting value. As negligible as Fairy Flight, and should be as full-package as Dragonflight.

This opens up design space for additional Djinn kits, and saves them from being sandbagged with +6 Nora on base.

3) Surge: Hyaenid and Dogpile

Because tbh, Hyaenids aren't really as spammable as say Surge: Spider, Surge: Voil, or Surge: Skeleton. So the Surge ability is rather less efficient than other spammable racial surges. I'd say even Surge: Boghopper is more efficient with Darkmarsh Warsong.

There really needs to be some cheap spammable Nids to support crutching on Surge champ for damage.

Furthermore, Dogpile should again be revisited. IMO, Djinns should get some kinda bonus from Dogpiled opponents. I understand that G'herns and mogas are 2 different racials existing under 1 theme, and they are unique that way, as they work in tandem. But Dogpile works independently of Djinn. Why even bother making Djinn a subtheme of Nids if you are designing them separately.

3) Peaks Dao

Reflexes 1,2,3 for Upgrade 1, and Deflect, Block 1, Block 2 for Upgrade 2 is not really what you call a good design. Unless the opponent is new to the game, no one would attack a Deflect + Reflexes 3 opponent with Ranged champions. Most likely they'll just spend the deflect with a melee attack and proceed in one-rounding Dao with their mid-60-70 ranged champ.

My suggestion here would be to design Dao as a phalanx champ with his old kit: Glorious Leap + Hold the Line.

Stats: Keep
Base: Keep, -6 Nora Flight
U1: Melee Specialist 2 (5 Nora), Reflexes 3 (9 Nora), Glorious Leap (12 Nora)
U2: Dodge 1 (6 Nora), Command: Dodge (6 Nora), Shroud (8 Nora)

 

Nice ideas! I especially like the changes for Dao, since I used to like that champ a lot. Reflexes and Block are super redundant and his whole kit is quite sandbagged at the moment. I would honestly be fine with him just not having Gift with the upgrades you suggest; actually, he'd probably be in a really good spot.

Biggest problem is I'm not sure if sok will wanna put in the time to consolidate Gift of the Djinn into Flight.

 

Yeah, I also gave up on convincing the devs, but the comparison between all the racial flight keywords is just a friendly reminder for them.. haha...

 

How 'bout Djins who'd attack a Dogpiled opposing champ gains Defiled? That's a good idea, Scarlet!

 

They should see this thread!

 

And also Cyclops..
They should just all have Mountaineer instead of having Alphine Cyclops in every bg so they won't get squished in a tiny map. That's crap.

 

I wouldn't want all the Cyclops to get +4 nora tho...I'd rather keep it on 1 cheap cyclops... Tho, they don't really have any key abilities, and are really separated from each other. Either you want to play the Tribal Hut-game, or normal Cyclops play.

You can mix them both, but:

1) It reduces the efficiency of putting down 25 Nora Tribal Hut because the benefit is really limited to certain Cyclopses. Basically, you will reduce the efficiency of that stats boost on Tribal Huts when you deploy Cyclopses that do not benefit from it

2) Keep note that 2 Tribal Huts in your BG already takes place of 2 potential runes. While other key racial abilities do not take any rune slots. Thus, the real racial ability of Clops is the amount of large health and the 2x2 discounts. Which is quite ineffective given that most of them are slow and fat

3) By forcing to play Tribal Hut-module, you will be severed by hardcounters on your certain Cyclopses, because two of them will have the same exact kits to offer. E.g, Cyclops Maulers = hard-countered by Immunity: Phy or Rock Eater (no pummel), Cyclops Lurker = Unobstructed View, Hauler = Alt damage.

This would mean that you just nora-sinked yourself for another Cyclops purely for stats boosting. Against a flexible BG that has multiple kits, you will have a hard time playing around your opponents because there is more or less a singular playstyle being offered when you go full Tribal Hut. That's why mix is better, but is less efficient stats-boost:nora wise.

Its really better if Tribal Hut functions as something else, and all cyclopses just get 1 single keyword that eliminates their drawback: being fat and slow (E.g, Mountaineer if there are 2 cyclopses, , Mobility and Trample if there are 3, Massive Leap on Large champs, Leap on small champs if there are 4 [reduce HP from base as necessary]etc)

 

-For the Djiins, I really liked the idea, and thinks that if they give the opponent more Debuffs (defile as example) they will be better with the theme (that is heavilly focused in debuffs) and I will probally run one or another of them.
-Cyclops doesn't need racial, they are the ones that can be placed whenever theme you want and still play with an amazing bg. But if want to promote theme, would be better if Zeventrech was cheaper (allowing splits with ST for more HP, yay) and we have some more synergy between some of them, aside from Tribal Hut. I don't know, maybe some abbility tht is similliar to "Clan" from Barbarian, cause, you know, they are tribal folks, maybe differente Tribes, provide different bonus.
-Nids in general are fine, with the change proposed to djiins (specially the Flight thing) will help them to be even better.
-Moga/G'hern are in a good place, the problem is the high cost of some of them (Spellsnare, looking at you). They are supposed to be a cheap spam Theme, and the +2 global nora just made them suffer more than any other theme (maybe FW cheap meat suffered the same). Give us more nora discount, so they can be playable in higher ranks again.
-Elec are good, due to lack of Immunity/Eater. The problem is the lack of runes, if you want an Eletricity Theme, you need the EXACTS runes, or you will have one or another shoebox in there, I'm talking this about the FF Elec theme, the original one. Give us more runes with Elec-wise abbilities, and buff the shoebox ones.
-Slags are fun as always, but not even closer to Top Tier. We need more ways to produce Ooze, not a bunch of Feshs that have the race: Slag by mistake (seriosly, they are FESHS for God sake, it's so hard to make an Amoeba with eyes?).
-Voil are fine, they are good as always, just don't change Sceian and keep them like they are (maybe one or 2 changes will be good for them).

 

Here are three runes which shouldn't draw too much outrage (i.e. I'll avoid talking about cyclonic fesh, the sceian warcry nerf, slam and cliff creation on hurler, etc.)

Sonic Elemental: His role is a passive, mobile, fast font contestor, but I think he's a bit too expensive for a passive unit. Remove amplify sonic, iron will, immunity sonic and the damage shield: sonic upgrade. In place of damage:shield sonic, allow a player to choose between deafening aura and tremor. Adjust price accordingly. He'll be cheap enough to reliably allow a double deploy and, imho, he's too expensive right now for how little he does.

Hyaneid Spiritspeaker: The patch made some interesting changes, but I think he's trying to do two roles at once and is too expensive as a result. I'd make him passive; remove his damage and reduce his range to 1. I'd then remove healing deficiency and magic eater (really...on a vaporize champion). I'd then give him as base antagonize; hex 3; cackle and increase his health and defense to make him tankier. Depending on nora cost, I might also give him defiling aura. Now he can spread debuffs, contest and generally be annoying enough to draw an opposing player's attention.

Spark Crone: I think she's a bit too expensive for a fragile 2-4 unit. I'd remove storm acoloyte (which isn't all that useful on a 45 hp champion, 1 def champ with no defensive abilities anyway).

 

I feel exactly the same on sonic ele! It is as if devs are intentionally making his costs really high for a passive deafening unit. His costs arent that far from Cackling Witch which is pretty sad imo. Sonic Ele just has too many abilities with so little benefit for himself.

But I have to say a <60 nora for a teleporting unit is very annoying on some maps. If he's going to stay as a passive unit, I feel like the right price range would be >60x<70, but he should offer more than just deafening aura and teleport.

 

I like these overall, but I think Spiritspeaker should definitely stay closer to the Vaporize persistent beater role he had going on before. I mean, I think he's supposed to be pretty threatening based on his artwork and the fact that he's a giant magical hyena-person.