Discussion: Pox Nora on PlayStation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Senshu, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    I too have stated before that calculating an opponents nora is not very difficult and its no secret, ,, just depends on hiw fast yer math is , at the sametime moving runes.
    having it calculated for you is no different.
    and it may help some players.
    but I do agree that it will make it possible to guage sneaky spells more accurately, and thats no good. if there was a way to do both, (conceal spell use),, then it would be fine,,(hiyashis idea isnt to shabby), but if it cant be done,, then showing mana is a bad idea.
     
  2. OchiK

    OchiK The King of Potatoes

    I just fear that trading a level of strategy and depth for convenience is never a good idea, especially if it is for convenience's sake alone.

    If it becomes known to everyone it still only really benefits the long time players who have many many more runes memorized.

    And also it seems an innocent and easy thing to "keep track" of your opponents Nora when ever they play a rune. But for the common 9 out of 10 players it will just be an approximation.

    They have 120 Nora they played a rune that cost 73 lets round to 75. They have 45, gained 66 so it's 111 spent 33 so back to 75ish again spent 24 so 50? I'm already off by 10 or so, maybe I keep that error ratio going, they have 50 Nora +/-10. And you do it again and again and again for a dozen turns, two dozen.

    All the while you're playing your own runes, negotiating board position, planning strategy and reacting to or applying pressure on your oppenent, reading ability text and who knows what else all compressed into a two minute window. At some point you're not going to know if your opponent has 50 Nora or 5.

    And then let's address the issue that the veteran players are worried about which again really only benefits them. You're playing against an SL BG. Oh their displayed Nora dropped by 35. A hidden spell? Probably ambush do I play my big expensive champ just to have him weakened or maybe a drop a chump or summon a unit instead first? Sure it could be other things, maybe Nora trap? But I'm not the dirty filthy FS so I'm not generating Nora outside of normal means. Maybe it's scapegoat? This way I know my spell will probably be misdirected so I shouldn't rely on a crucial spell cast and should make other plans.

    And sure you won't know which spell but other then the experienced players having those incites they are still very easy to test. I don't know what was cast. I'll assume ambush so instead of dropping my sheoul demon I'll drop goblin arsonist instead, nothing went off. Since I don't have to worry about Nora trap I'll assume scapegoat? I was going to banish that myx broodlord that is threatening my font with massive leap and giving commander to a myx slasher so I could easily deal with the slasher and control this board position, but instead I'll probably banish that skeezick cannoneer putzing about the enemies deployment zone. So I'll reinforce and shore up the font instead. Maybe I drop a spell and nothing happens, oh well maybe it is Nora trap after all and I'll just gather Nora globes sparingly for a bit.

    I can see pros and cons for both sides, however it just seems unnecessary and regardless will still primarily benefit the veteran players. And even if more people learned to predict hidden spells and runes it only serves to hurt the person playing those runes more in the long run leaving those runes to be less desired and ultimately more likely to fade into obscurity or fall out of play. And let's face it some of those runes don't see much play if any at all already.
     
  3. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    well I think thats the issue,,, keeping it about stragety and gamepley.
    if one person calculates faster or better,, they have an advantage that has nothing to do with the game.
    same goes for dam calculator. .
    I use to play some heavy duty ww2tbs games,,, they all had calculators,,, without them youd be doing more math then actual play. I guess I just feel like it would streamline the game a bit,,, i really just want more players then anything.
    but as stated, I think there gonna remove it anyway,,, its kool either way.
     
  4. OchiK

    OchiK The King of Potatoes

    It's hard to tell, they've sidelined it for now because it's not quite working or looking how they want, I'm just curious about reasoning.

    If anything I think the biggest pro for new people would be for getting them to slow down, the enemy has 120 Nora banked and you won't be able to contest any font zones this turn, is it really a good idea to move your guys closer unsupported especially if you have 32 Nora?

    Edit: with "older" or perhaps "more experienced" players there's a bit of what I refer to as a Cold War period leading up to the contesting of fonts or significant skirmishes where both parties are just inching their champs closer to each other 1-2 spaces as a time trying to save up as much AP as possible in hopes of catching their opponent overextended or to try and deal a decisive blow first. While new people just rush in and get slaughtered.
     
  5. Hiyashi

    Hiyashi I need me some PIE!

    Unless you use a technical aid it's actually really hard to keep track of your opponents nora. For new players it's pretty much impossible to do accurately. Information like how much nora you get from a shrine, font or globe are hard to obtain if you are just starting out. That adds to the artificial difficulty of the game. Making nora publicly visible would have many benefits for all layers of the playerbase.
    Newbies and casuals would have an easier time understanding what is happening in the game. Getting blindsided by "spell spam" or a bunch of champions poping up out of nowhere wouldn't be an unexplainable cheap tactic anymore. Missing things being played would become less likely. Basically learning would become easier.
    Veteran players would have a bit more convenience and hopefully a bit more fun playing when their opponents don't make obvious mistakes anymore.


    Make a spreadsheet, be 99% accurate with a lot less hassle.

    Assuming that the coders behind PN actually had a coding lesson or two by now they should be able to make a system that updates the displayed nora when the effect of the hidden spell triggers instead of when the hidden spell was played. So literally nothing changes compared to how it works now, for veteran players, anyway. When a veteran player is playing against something that could possibly cast something hidden or mass nuke you with spells they happen to be very cautious when nothing was played in a turn where something could have been played. A newbie is blissfully unaware of the upcoming danger. They get surprised and lose games to stuff like that all the time. That isn't fun for any of the parties. Losing to things you didn't anticipate in a strategic game is lame. Winning to a newbie who doesn't know better is also lame. More information leads to better strategies which is a win/win for everybody.
     
  6. OchiK

    OchiK The King of Potatoes

    I don't think it's really feasible to keep a running accurate spread sheet going 9/10 while you're managing your turns especially mid to late games when you're managing potentially 7-15 champs.

    Also if the display Nora doesn't update until after a spell triggers how will the actual user know how much Nora they really have?

    And while it should be common sense to be wary when your opponent doesn't do anything the point I was making was that with exact up to date info on their Nora it makes it easier to ascertain exactly WHAT they did. There's a lot of things to check and keep track of, I doubt that many new players keep the combat Log up and open at all times to see exactly what is going on too.
     
  7. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    Alright guys, here's a scenario for you:

    Say I go first, and deploy a shadowspawned Imp. My opponent double deploys. Second turn, I deploy a shadowspawned Flame Skitter and cast Smoke Cloud; I also take my near font. My opponent deploys on his turn, likely takes font. I cast Rapid Assault, and deploy a now-shadowspawned (due to Smoke Cloud) Minotaur Portalwalker.

    How much nora will I have next turn?

    Bare in mind, you don't yet know what builds I'm running on any of these champs due to Stealth mechanics.
     
    TeaNinja and Kampel like this.
  8. OchiK

    OchiK The King of Potatoes

  9. JellyBerry

    JellyBerry Forum Royalty

    Knowing your opponent's Nora is secondary to the proper management of your own resources and in most cases it isn't even necessary to know exact numbers.

    Displaying it isn't vital and won't explicitly help anyone get better at the game (if anything this would Firk over new players instead of helping them), yet will ruin the sense of concealment that is not only tied to hidden spells, but the way you approach the game on a turn by turn basis. So no, I don't think the game would stay the same with values fully displayed simply because certainty of any kind is a game changer on it's own, and to say otherwise is idiotic at best.

    This simply doesn't need changing. Don't Firk with it, focus on other things. You're all simply overestimating what this would do to the quality of your own play.
     
    TeaNinja likes this.
  10. TeaNinja

    TeaNinja I need me some PIE!

    One of my favorite things about Poxnora is hidden spells. I don't like your opponent knowing for free that you cast a hidden spell. I would be very disappointed if Poxnora lost this aspect. And I don't even think it's very important information to the new player experience.
     
    Etherielin, 19madfox95, Qucas and 2 others like this.
  11. Senshu

    Senshu Administrator Octopi

    That is part of the reason why we put it on hold. There isn't a good way to address hidden spells in the way we were originally thinking.
     
  12. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    how does hiyashis idea sound about hidden effects ? the nora would be subtracted when the spell is triggered, not when its played, traps and stuff as well. So an opponent would miscalculate , preserving the hidden effect.
    other then that everything would be the same. Even now , if you play a champ with shadow spawn,, u can read it on the combat log, even click it and see the card.
    dont see all the hub bub
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
    TeaNinja likes this.
  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    There are several ways of handling hidden effects in such a scenario, but all of them require additional work. We'll revisit the idea later when there is more time.
     
  14. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    It won't show you the champ if it's stealthed unless they changed it very recently.
     
  15. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    no,, it shows shadow spawn champs,, always has still does (I just checked)...
    guess u werent as sneaky as u thought u were :)

    nora info , dam calculator, even a lil counter telling u how much ap a champ with initiative will have before you place it..
    these type of things that would make pox look like a polished strategy game and much easier to learn as u play, imo,,,, not more runes and mechanics.
     
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    upload_2016-11-17_17-0-50.png

    This is in-game screenshot :D
     
  17. TeaNinja

    TeaNinja I need me some PIE!

  18. bambino

    bambino I need me some PIE!

    very nice,,,

    notice the ps4/vita┬┐ options..
    still cant believe this is goin down.
    hoping we gain much players,, but even then. ,, this is such a big upgrade for the peeps that been here all these years,, playing, arguing and all the Bane Shift in between. .. im pumPed!!!
     
  19. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Beautiful, beautiful UI...

    and is that a max HP counter I see?
     
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Yes
     

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