Do These UD runes need a buff?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Revengercm, May 28, 2015.

  1. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    These are runes that haven't impressed me enough to use them. I tried some and I kind of didn't like them. Some may be good but aren't generally used in top tiers so I may think they're already bad because of this.

    If you think I'm terribly wrong please help me understand why it's each one is good for top tiers. If there are some that you think that are bad and not addressed here please tell me. English is not my first language.

    Albino Capino
    - I forgot but I know he is like the top 3 cheapest champ on poxbox.
    Solution: add at least 4 more damage.

    Ash Demon
    - I have no idea how to make him better. Maybe a ranged attack.

    Bok Gatekeeper
    - I think she might be good. The problem for me is that it's only good for one specific moment in the game which is when your shrine is being attacked. (I'm in doubt here so a simple yes is enough to understand she's good.

    Bok Guardian
    - Add absorb

    Captive Lorekeeper
    - He sucks so bad for me. Everything should be changed.

    Corrupted Cultist
    - Make Sheoul's Bond be activated by Sheoul Demon, Disciple, Magus or Monstrosity.

    Corrupted Overlord
    - Costs too much. Maybe remove Distichous: UD/FS

    Deep Elf Temptress
    - Is she still weak?

    Fire Elemental
    - Too simple to use?

    - costs too much. Maybe remove the relic from the ability or make fiery death cost less.

    - costs too much. Remove favor or another thing.

    Goblin Brute
    - Eh. Make him so he stays alive longer. We don't have many goblins so we should have every single one strong.

    - He seems it could get guys from range 1-3

    Murk Demon
    - Unless you're using DEP Assassin... I don't find him good.

    Nefari Soul torch
    - Remove Fester and +2 dmg

    - add Counter attack: Melee

    Shadow Master
    - add deep wounds

    Siege Monger
    - remove consume and siege lord. Add physical resistance rank 3 or something else.

    - Too bulky when everything is offensive.

    Cavernspawn: Make it FF SP.

    Vanguard: when another 3 champions with counter attack: ranged, absorb or arrow eater are in play, it activates.

    EDIT: Nefari Messenger's price is too much.

    There are spells, relics and equips but I guess I don't care that much since we have too many good options.
    Last edited: May 28, 2015

    MEATMAN Forum Royalty

    thoughts from another ******* in UD

    MEATMAN Forum Royalty

    btw, why is this not in the UD forums?
  4. Leadrz

    Leadrz I need me some PIE!

    Leave fire elemental out of this?
    SPiEkY likes this.

    MEATMAN Forum Royalty

    he's pretty t its
    SPiEkY likes this.
  6. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    Because we need all the other zealots opinions.
  7. Ifem21

    Ifem21 The King of Potatoes

    Bok Guardian and Fire Elemental are fine for me. They don't are Top Tiers runes, but are very viable in some situations (I use the Elemental in a Fire Eater BG, and the Guardian in one of my Fav UD).
    Leadrz likes this.
  8. claydude5

    claydude5 The King of Potatoes

    Fire Ele, Bok Guardian, Corr Overlord, shadow master, murk demon, gahlroonling, lorekeeper, cultist, and firemaw are all fine. Stop whining about perfectly viable runes and complain about things like Griefbearer.
    SPiEkY and Pattn199 like this.
  9. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    I think that sheoul bond should have more champs that trigger it all champs with sheoul as well as Maxxarek
  10. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    Try running x2 katipo and x2 scorpic with lethal poison and you'll see how good they can be in a spider deck.
  11. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    Well at least you agree the rest need help. That's what the thread for. People are already complaining too much about things being OP. Why aren't shoeboxed runes as important as the OP ones? There will always be OP stuff in every patch but the unusable can just get a quick fix and they may not need a change in the future.
  12. Jib

    Jib Better-Known Member

    Nothing would look OP if it was compared to good stuff.

    Hence the shoebox.
  13. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    This goes for the rest of the factions. It might seem I'm a zealot but that's because I have no idea where to begin with other factions.
  14. Kampel

    Kampel I need me some PIE!

    Not only you gave the stupidiest reason to buff it but your solution makes me realize you didnt even understand what that champ was made for.
    mortal ix, Baskitkase, Ifem21 and 3 others like this.
  15. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    People here take it too seriously lol.
    I made a solution so the devs don't go mentioning I'm just saying a rune should change but I'm not giving any ideas. So to evade that I gave a quick change but hell I don't know if any of them are good. I just know some could get worked on. Some may be good enough but why nobody uses them? When someone is asking for advice on a bg he made, people always mentions the same champs to be exchanged. It shouldn't be like that. All meta BGs shouldn't be the same.
    Oh Nefari guardian, ireguard, pincushion, grimlic etc. should be auto in any meta bg. That's why I want these guys buffed so auto runes stop appearing.
  16. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    i don't know why we are not giving temptress 6 speed. shes already cheap it won't make much difference between 5-6 in nora cost only like 6 nora
  17. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    That's probably because it's the same people suggesting BG changes, so, naturally, they're going to suggest what they think is best.
  18. NiGhtMaRiK

    NiGhtMaRiK I need me some PIE!

    Alot of these are only "bad" because we have better and they lack cohesion. With that said:

    Albino Capino : Seems more of a Duelist to me so if used in this fashion he shines alot more. He is more susceptible to Firkery than other units though.
    If any fix id like to remove envenom and put shadowstrike on that chain.
    For a more dramatic overhaul. You could put an ability in the upgrade chain like Infected Zombies, so when you die under Katipo poison by Katipo poison you spawn another. Like Swarm + Infest Mashup
    I think a nice combo with this guy is using SL Gaze champs.
    I also have a Voteav deck using this guy and ressurecting Scorpics.

    Ash Demon: He's not bad. Just completely vanilla and doesn't offer anything that excites you to play him over other better utility or one round options.
    Don't know if i would go over board with him. One Thematic and useful buff i would try that i think would let him see SOME play is to give him Ash Strike.
    Breath of Ashe terrain would affect the area around the target he attacks (like shade/snow strike) Id probably make it a AoE 3 or 4.
    Also, personally i'd remove Dmg. Shield for Flame Armor.

    Bok Gatekeeper: Another person in the Shadows because of more interesting and utility driven champs. However i don't find Gatekeeper bad. Noble Sac gives a burst dmg that could come in handy or a little extra Hp in a bind.
    Throw Shield is great and gives an interesting threat range whilst having Block.

    Bok Guardian:I love this girl. Honestly i wouldn't change her at all. This rune kind of exemplifies what i was talking about in What is the point of giving the Damage Shields to those ranged champions? . I'd make a new Bok that while present gives Bok's a racial. Or a completely support Bok that give's out abilities that synergize with Boks. I'd have her with some Bok only specific abilities aswell. Maybe her CD's go down whenever a Bok is removed from play. It's hard for you to understand what i mean in theoreticals, but maybe someone understands and i may make a rune idea later to showcase my intentions.

    Captive Lorekeeper: I think Cap Keeper is known to be awful. He has been used in trick decks in the past, but ultimately he has no purpose. He cant dmg, he can barely hold a font, has no interesting abilities. All he does is demand a DE and try to disguise himself as useful while you try to pump spells out to cover his cost and proc favor. All the while all he did was reduce your bonus until he maybe Nova'd the enemy for Not worth, dmg. I don't know what the vision for this rune was, but it sucks atm.
    I'd start to revamp him by giving him some synergy with Bok. I believe they are the ones that keep prisoners. I'd also give him Toss Equip and have him start in play with Heretic shackle. I'd make a new ability that worked like Provisioned but a negative effect. Have it give lumbering, defenseless and easy target. -15 nora modifier and give it to this guy base.

    Now we could stop here, but i just thought of something interesting. We could release a Exo or Leg Bok that has this guy as a Pet. The Bok could have an ability on a 4-5 turn CD that trains a champion that "Neg Provisioned" condition. So when the Lore Keeper tosses its a good synergy. Yet the ability to train and toss isn't on one champ making it possibly problematic. The actual rune (non pet) Lore keeper could have some way to get charges base. Abuse charged maybe. And have Keeper of Memories. as an upgrade. Give him like Psychic Amped or some minor charge ability base. Give him Craft, Favor as Ups (Maybe Favor Default) same chain as KoM. So theres a Thematic useful ability on the actual rune (non pet). I'll theory craft a Bok later.

    Corrupted Cultist: Wouldn't be that hard to make every Sheoul champ be labeled with that extra identifier, like Demon Elves are. Then just have his Bond say Sheouls. I doubt that would even make him ran more, but it would be a start. I think he needs +1 range.

    Corrupted Overlord: He's not really bad. You can actually get good use out of him. He has to be played a bit weird and is a bit underwhelming in comparison to other similar champs but he's not bad. He struggles because he's trying to cater to both factions synergy so he gets stuck with alot of combinations that weigh him down and aren't always useful. Immunity and Amphibious synergize with his two "Bombs" but otherwise aren't always useful and you could go without them. Tidal probably gets used the least and Lava Storm has an immense CD so you aren't getting too too much from the Immunity. The rest of the Dis champs are better "champs" overall. There Dis abilities don't make or break them. Overlord kind of hinges on his to actually be good. I think his U's need to be rethought and possibly Immune and Amphib be considered for them in some way that makes sense for an overall kit depending on how you want him to be more than straddling two themes. I would like Colossal back, but ohwell. Preparation wouldn't be a bad idea.

    Deep Elf Temptress: Just received a small buff. So id hold off on any scrutiny for a few weeks. I've always felt she was on the cusp of being really useful. So maybe this did it for her.

    Fire Elemental: He may be boring and simple, but he is REALLY good. One of the best harassers you can get for the cost. High dmg, Aura pushes that even further. Eater keeps him sustained in Fire BG. He's really good, especially for cost. Chip420 or chris runs these alot in there fire BG. Their Speed is great aswell.

    Firemaw: Again, i don't find this guy bad. I think he really shines when you play him Kamikaze and when you play with his Fiery Death in mind. If you have Relocate: Relic i think it really helps. Some even run Consume champs to proc Death early when you really need it or to start an engine. Expensive engine lol. A First could easily give you good use out of this guy. I think he's great Early to Mid game. Late game he may be able to Death some low life units and change the field, but not often. Usually he'll just be a dmg sponge and then his relic will easily be killed. That said, his relic could be maybe, 15 hp. Or have like Warguard or something. It was a huge problem in the past, i think it may be ok to buff the relic in todays game though. He may see adjustments when all the Dragons get revisited. None are really getting ran these days, much like Titans.

    Gahlrooling: I think Favor may be the only thing Right on him! Latch on has its merits but i would like to see more synergized with that. The whole reason this guy was changed was because you got way more for his cost than the disparity between him and Ghalroon should of let you. with Deafening Aura he put out quite a bit of dmg and antagonize staved off a good bit aswell. Then when he died you got an IMPERVIOUS ghalroon. He's probably about 15 nora avg more than Ghalroon right now. So balancing him is kind of difficult. Instead of Flame Nova, Id rather just have a flat Aura 3. Id rather not have any Death Nova's. It's interesting because your opponent attacking him and you manipulating his life with outside sources is kind of the playful game to this guy. So adding abilities that mess with that kind of take away from flavor. Same with Ghalroon's Blood Frenzy. Id like Exertion or Blood Rage. They synergize. But kind of dissolves flavor. Energy Thief, Relocate: Blood Ball, Afflict, Manic, Psychotic Break, Punishing Aura etc... all things i'd rather have. Before you got WAY TOO MUCH out of him before he Ghalrooned over your face, now it's fairly underwhelming and ...why not just use Ghalroon? <<< Thats the question we have to answer and fix so it makes sense and is an apparent strength and draw to play the rune.

    Goblin Brute: Go back to April Fools Edition! Fixed. Seriously though i think he's another person that needs a theme support rune that would indirectly make him viable or make this guy a Pet in a future rune. Territorial, Fury, or an ability like Cyclopean menace wouldn't be bad however. But i doubt he'll ever see much play until the theme as a whole is salvaged.

    Incinerator: 16+ dmg Flame Strike and Purging Flames is nothing to scoff at. Purge is better on Stoker since he can proc it. Melt is pretty useless since its so situational. His trouble is his speed really. He does alot better in a full Fire BG, but Fire BG's have alot to offer already. I think the Purging Flames would be better from him than Stoker in a Fire BG, however i don't care for how Eater makes you not take the dmg so you never can proc the Purge. Eater has alot of interactions it messes up. You could try to make him generally good but id strive more for an identity in Fire BGs. Either Make melt more meaningful or give him Domain: Lava. Instead of melt being active, id make it passive like Desecrated Zone (which FYI should be AoE 4 and not 2). Reduce Aquatic and Artic dmg to 4-5.

    Murk Demon: He's not ...the worst. Pretty useful in one of my shrine rush BG's. However he definitely is inefficient and confusing. Why All the stealth mechs aren't on one U chain, i dunno. Change that. Also with Ethereal Murk is less useful. I think Ethereal is a neg cost mod that can be useful at times. He's really stealthy and undetectable unless he gets in range of Detection. It would be nice if he had something that accented this trait. I wont give any suggestions right now. Again Ethereal is such a puzzle on him and personally id like to see it switched for something. You could switch it for Lumbering. That would put him at 45 nora.

    Nefari Soul Torch: Such an odd place. We are already having a debate about Dmg. Shields on Ranged units (especially ones with 40 hp) in another thread. Personally i'd never use her as she is, or even remotely close. It's like you're suppose to put in as much dmg as you can and punish them for healing and get a little extra dmg off from Dmg Shields before ret'ing this beauty away or something. Im not for the all in kamikaze playstyle. She's really expensive for in my opinion, not doing anything.
    I don't even like Torch ability that much. You aren't going to run it unless you are in a full Fire Bg or you don't have really any healing in your own BG. Someone healing for half doesn't really concern me either. Its like Decay, but worse, Dark healing, but worse. I think if you wanna have an ability like this than when it proc's the champion affected should have Inhibited and Defiled for 4 turns. So they wont heal again but the meager one they just got for 4 turns. That would remove Fester and free up some nora. Id remove Dmg Shield and move Fire Alcolyte to base. Have immunity and Eater as U2 still. Id have U1 be Noble Sac, Adaptive UD, Ethereal.

    Scorpic: He is fine. Very little tweaks if any should be considered. Id look more to thematic support for Spider poison in future runes if anything. Also Sting and Envenom need to have been consolidated Yesterday.

    Shadow Master: No more deep wounds! He's strong for his cost. Its more so that the Stealth Theme is lacking than him being a poor rune. Just another theme that needs to be salvaged. However its hard since Stealth is so taboo. Id like to see diverse build options from him tho. Detect 3 in U2 and kill the other options, give him Scrapper as an option, give him Murk. U1 Give him Shadow shift, Shadowmeld (new ability stealths, gives assasinate 1, elusive for 3 turns) AP:5 CD:4, Cloak 2 . Give Shadow Strike base. FYI, Cloak Sucks. needs 2 extra range and maybe it'll be useful.

    Siege Monger: Suffers from the Dual Edge Theme of UD. If our opponent suffers, we must suffer in some way aswell. If only the Opponent wasn't permitted to use relics, this would see far more play. Being that its both of us, its hard to find a place for it. Solution? Make Seige Lord an Activated ability that last 2-3 rounds, or a passive that proc's when a relic is deployed from rune dock and persists for 2-3 rounds, or make it AoE 8 or something. Even still, this guy isn't that flavorful or powerful. Seige Lord was his sig, so i would leave it on him. Possibly move it to U's. You could change the name and move it to U's and make it like Restrict. Then make Seige Lord the name for an ability that gives champ's AoE2 of him Seige. Pushes him to be a target since if he gets to your shrine, it's gonna be a sad day. I fully understand this may result in Trick BG's, Super champ deck, etc. Could be problematic. Could just be a strong deck theme crutched on one rune that you'd have to learn to play around. If its an active, you could just keep him distracted. or attack all the units around him. Anyway...just a thought. More so i think his U1's need to be Crushing Charge, Crazed Charger, Tough 3. His U2 should be Trample, Quest: Damage, Consume. Charge 3 base.

    Undertoise: Equip with Hessy Crossbow and he's OP! I think he's obscure and takes some tinkering with to see his value. He's not inherently bad. I think that his U's could use work. I'd move Defender 3 on U1 and scrap the others since they are negligible nora difference. Id move Unstoppable and Provision there aswell. U2 id have Scale Armor, Reflection 6, Tough 3. Id have Regen 3 base.

    Cavernspawn: Agreed. TBH, he's not all that interesting, but he's not bad. A minor cost reduction and he could see use. Id slap a neg cost modifier on him and see where he lands. Kinda glad he lost Kill Frenzy, it was pretty impractical.

    Vanguard: Not sure he's in a bad place now, but i see nothing wrong with your proposal.
  19. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    there are surprisingly few unplayable champs in this game
    Pattn199 likes this.
  20. Revengercm

    Revengercm I need me some PIE!

    Well thanks a lot nightmarik. That's exactly what I was looking for. I have x2 firemaw in my fire bg. They all are fire eaters so he's fiery death gets a bit more of viability.
    I would like to use corrupted overlord on FF UD. I dont' really care but I would like a mutant bg to be possible. They should make soulthirster mutant as well and make them a theme.

    This really helped a lot and I hope devs read your hard worked summary.

    I guess I'll wait for Goblin to get at least 2-3 more goblins so it is a theme.
    NiGhtMaRiK likes this.

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