Fake news again

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by super71, Jan 21, 2019.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    Very few people mean "every X" when they say this stuff. Your insistence on interpreting it that way is basically nitpicking.

    When I say, "I am concerned about police brutality" I don't mean every cop is beating people for no reason.

    When I say, "I am concerned about Congress' ability to function" I don't mean every politician is bad.

    When I say, "I am concerned about Trump's policies" I don't mean that there are literally ZERO that I like.
     
  2. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    well we will differ there I suppose, I do believe the examples given above are fine, they are general statements, but I don't believe they are equivalent to the statements that concern me either, though ultimately the things that concern me happen prior to the statements that come from the public.

    It's a subtle thing that occurs frequently, even in our conversation but like I said you made a statement that woman are concerned about mens behaviour.....what percentage of the population is that behavior occurring in? less than 1%? less than 0.1%? why are we saying men and not rapists or assalters which would also include woman doing wrong things as well
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    And if we talked about rapists, you might say, "Rapes are a small % of crimes, why aren't we talking about all kinds of sexual crimes?" And then if we talk about all sex crimes, you might say, "sex crimes aren't all crimes, why aren't we talking about all crime?"

    In general, I don't see a problem with people caring about a subset of a problem or any particular problem.

    Someone who is concerned about reducing car emissions shouldn't be told, "Why don't you care about coal emissions?"

    Someone who is concerned about Parkinson's shouldn't be told, "Why don't you care about cancer?"

    I just generally don't see any value in pushing people to admitting that X or Y is also a problem, unless they are ACTIVELY claiming it isn't one, and I don't see how it's productive in any way except as a way to distract/not engage with their concern.
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    It just seems frustratingly pendantic and not useful to facilitating any discussion. You have done this several times now in various discussions, for example, suddenly bringing up the middle east as more of an issue in my thread about loyalty oaths.

    It's like, yea... the middle east IS screwed up, but it's not what I am discussing right now? Why are you gatekeeping what people can care about?
     
  5. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    it makes sense you'd have a problem with me telling people they are over generalizing, because the lefts entire argument is based on the over generalization of groups of people.

    to be fair mos of the rights arguments are much of the same.

    you don't see the stupidity in that? you aren't making any progress on anything when you're jumping at make belief shadows and assigning responsibility to people that have done nothing, you're not having any discussion about anything, it's not gate keeping it's simply pointing out stupidity.

    if you want to choose to see it as gate keeping thought that's fine, I would do the same to a racist saying "black men aren't smart enough to go to college" oh but he obviously doesn't mean all black men, "mexicans bring drugs into the country and are rapists" well he obviously doesn't mean all mexicans so it's fine

    BS it's a stupid line of thinking, and a stupid excuse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  6. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    look at least on some of this point I can understand your point of view, although I didn't bring this particular argument up here at all as an aside I generally am more concerned with the major issues of the day rather than the small ones, and I often tell my point of view on that, that does not invalidate anyone elses opinion on it, but neither does their views invalidate mine, if I think they are squabbling over tiny issues that aren't worth people time I will say it as such, though it does not invalidate their point, it is simply my opinion being stated.

    stating my opinion is not a debating tactic, so I'm not expecting to convince or not convince anyone by doing it.

    telling someone issue X is dumb and issue Y is more important would be my opinion and as you have stated unless you are gate keeping thought i'm allowed to have one, even if it disagrees with you.

    as for it being productive since I'm of the opinion that issue Y is vastly more important to be dealt with then X i'd hope to see a productive discussion get started on something that imo is more important to be dealt with, or lead the discussion away from an echo chamber style discussion that becomes over focused on a single issue that is not being put into proper perspective, or perhaps i'm simply saying my opinion and it doesn't really need to be all that productive.

    I will leave this point with this statement....the relevance of a topic is not immune to discussion, and in the cases I do this I am bringing up how relevant the topic is, if you feel strongly enough about it convince me it's relevant, and why it matters that it's one of the mos important issues of our time or at least important enough to debate it, but at the end of the day like any discussion point it cannot make or break the topic it's just another point of discussion
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    My problem with you saying people are overgeneralizing is that I think you are also overgeneralizing (as evidenced by the above statements).

    In fact, in the case of the "women call men pigs for trying" POV, you are so vested in this POV you thought super was expressing it and attempted to use him as an example and preemptively admonished me in case I suggested he was an outlier.

    Here's the secret about "overgeneralizing." People who are doing it usually don't think they are. They feel that the POV is justified, just as you do now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    Do you not see the irony in pointing out to people that "X is a bigger problem and you should worry more about X instead of Y" while ALSO saying you don't care if your opinions are productive?
     
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    Anyway, apologies for jumping down your throat a bit here. This type of thing is a pet peeve of mine as I feel that de-railing conversations rarely serve a purpose and I see this kind of thing constantly in online discussions. People just end up talking in circles with each focusing on the issue they care about and people just talk at each other.

    And if you want to throw out your opinion and don't care if it is providing any value to the discussion, that IS your right. But that's not the same as trying to steer the conversation into more "productive discussion." In fact, it's the opposite. So you should decide which you are actually trying to do, because your last post seems to suggest that you don't even know what you are trying to do.
     
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    Also, how do you know that you know enough about so many issues to judge which ones are productive to discuss? For example, in the loyalty oath issue, you didn't even seem to have informed yourself on the topic to know there were laws passed for it (even tho it literally said so in the article). So it seems suspect to me for you to elevate your position to "Issue Judge" when you are barely informed enough to comment? Shouldn't you educate yourself on the other issue before declaring it not important enough?
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  11. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    I believe as I stated that my statements can have different meanings to me at different times, some times I may not care if it's productive, as I'm simply stating an opinion on an issues, other times I may want to be productive and actually start a discussion on relevance. It's simply a matter of the mood I'm in at the time. not every comment is intended to start a long debate or philosophical discussion but I never make a comment to be pointless....unless i'm trolling someone, which I try to do less of now.

    it may seems contradictory to say a comment not intended to be productive is at the same time not pointless, but at least in my view presenting my point of view is in and of itself the point, even if I don't expect much to come of it.

    It's like telling a KKK member that being a racist is bad, that is an opinion and I don't expect much to come of it by telling him, but I will state my opinion anyway, stating my stance in opposition to their belief is and of itself the point in this case.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019
  12. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Isn't that the point of the debate. I state why it's not important you state why it is , maybe you convince me maybe you don't, or maybe we sway others about the topic but that's why we are discussing relevance, to hopefully come out with a more concrete topic or to disregard pointless ones. If you cannot do that than the topic has no merit IMO.

    regardless once again you jump back to the loyalty oath, in that topic we came to the same conclusion though differing opinions on it(that it would not stand up in supreme court), I do not keep up to date on every small law passed in US, a country I do not live in, thus I asked you to source the information because I don't take peoples comments at face value, which you did and it was a good read, and it changed near t nothing about my opinion on it, which was stated near the beginning in brief as a non-issue since it would not stand up in court.

    nothing you said after my comment has refuted my point that it would not stand up in court, only how unlikely it is to get to court, and the cultural significance around the creation of such things, but as you said historically these things don't stand up in court....which means these sort of things have been going around for a long time....it's nothing new, which is why I ask why something that is a non-issue, that cannot stand up in court, and is barely about anything new is being treated like a major issue, the teacher has legal options to defend herself which is more than many other people have in the us and else where.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2019

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