Festering Wounds

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ballballer, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    As the fw player wouldnt you dictate this then? If they plop down the emerald they eat a global 4 damage and play their hand. If they dont plop it down theyre eating global 10 dmg and cant heal anything.
     
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  2. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Er, point was a bad word, it could imply time -- I should have said position. For super-long term FW, just about everything will hit the field anyway, so forcing plays only matters in a micro way, going from moment to moment. Prompting the actual playing of the Emerald can help, but it's really secondary to the thing being out at all (in this particular context).

    Ok, assuming Tomb didn't exist -- how would you feel about the global interaction between Tome and Wounds? Really hypothetical question, but I guess do the best you can.
     
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Alrighty. So the big boogeyman here is UT?
     
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    What "completely different" function does Festering Wounds provide that isn't damage? Note I am emphasizing the words "completely different."

    Additionally, your initial comments in this thread suggested your primary problem with Festering Wounds was its damage output in combination with it being hard to counter
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  5. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    The core problem with Festering Wounds is that UT exists.
     
  6. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Aoe spells are used to finish off champs in a specific area. Nobody just casts those spells for fun, because they can just be healed up, the champ can still attack, and youve basically wasted 45 nora. Festering wounds is used to globally wear away at champs to the tune of 10 damage (is this why youre thinking aoe for some reason?) while preventing any healing. Festering wounds is more like a longer strategy that has tiny tiny ways of efficiently being efficiently countered, while aoe spells are generally finishers with the added benefit of hitting another champ or 2
     
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  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I edited my post with more information since you originally replied, I will put it here instead:

    Your initial comments in this thread suggested your primary problem with Festering Wounds was its damage output in combination with it being hard to counter.

    Thus, it seems prudent that nature of the damage being delayed vs standard AEs being instant damage seems like something that should be discussed. For example, what is the net tradeoff here for the delay but global, and how do we go about examining spells like Festering Wounds?

    Because the alternative is largely looking at Festering Wounds in isolation, instead of looking at what it might be replaced with in a build.
     
  8. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    See, if festering wounds affected all champs (like it used to) then i wouldnt have a problem with it even with the tomb interaction
     
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  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Did it really though? Back then, with Boon and its Immunity - Disease, so for all intents and purposes, it wasn't going to hit the casting player's champions anyway unless they opted into it.
     
  10. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    I don't really think Festering Wounds is OP. It's strong, sure, but it doesn't seem broken. The damage it deals is delayed compared to instant and happens in several small increments, meaning it is countered by Tough/Resilient/Void Shield. It doesn't stack with the disease DoTs coming from other sources and doesn't clear the board on your turn, which is often an unrecognized advantage of damage spells (although perhaps not as much so in the FW attrition playstyle).

    I think it provides a good amount of benefit against healing BGs, but that's a matchup-based concern. Emerald does deal with it, as well (reminder that there isn't a 1x limit on Emeralds or Cleanse in general). And Cleansing Aura/Soothing Aura champs/relics do as well. The argument that Festering Wounds could bait Cleansing Emerald, making it a good trade, is flawed in a few respects. It assumes that you can only run 1 Emerald/source of AoE cleanse, that your cleanse from the Emerald isn't also curing other debuffs, and that the FW player invests nothing into killing the Emerald, all of which aren't necessarily true.
     
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  11. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    I would kinda just say look at what its being used to do and how efficiently is it doing it. Festering wounds is being used to globally deny healing to your opponents champs while doing 10 damage overtime (if its not cleansed, but in large part the cleanse is either inefficient and you still take damage or isolated to 1 faction). Festering wounds is heavily used in conjunction with other global effects like dark favor and amplifies the global damage even more while preventing it from being mitigated. Aoe spells are immediate and are used to end a units life as a finisher. Aoes are more of a tactical immediate move, while festering wounds promotes a long term strategy way way way too efficiently.
     
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  12. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Yeah it would in a split and non undead chanps in fw, but point taken
     
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  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Yea, on that point it seems like what we might say is that the changes in FW and Festering Wounds has made it more prevalent.

    ~

    This could be argued that it wasn't a problem before and isn't now, you just see it more.

    OR

    This was a problem before but it wasn't as big a deal because it was seen less often.
     
  14. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    I disagree so much with this its ridiculous
    I get a global dark favor on your champs and you get (in the absolute best case scenario) an emerald at mid font and you got every champ you own cleansed with it.
    Now, (and for the sake of this lets assume that they dont have another emerald because we both know thats stupid) your cleanse is officially on the board. Assuming you keep all your champs in cleanse area, i cant debuff you and expect it to stick. So what do i do? I sit back, contest the font, and either take potshots at the emerald or powerturn and kill it. If you rush me youll be out of emeralds range and i can resume debuffing you. Anyways, NOW YOU ARE BONED. You have no cleanse and while your emerald soaked up 25 dmg, it was a very very very bad trade for you for the rest of the match.

    If the emerald is already curing other debuffs and on the board, why would i cast festering wounds? Or are you saying it could cure multiple debuffs at the same time after i cast the spell, in which case i would say "duh" thats the point of cleanse. If i just put a killer debuff on a champ, im not going to cast festering wounds because i want your emerald to be played first (unless festering wounds would kill a champ). And even if i was stupid enough to play it, thats still a global 4 dmg you just ate.
     
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  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You seem to be describing the best case scenario here for you as the aggressor. Is it not possible you cannot contest the font without being in the Emeralds' range? How come you get to damage the Emerald, contest AND can't be engaged upon, while at the same time not be effected by the Emerald's presence? Is the opponent that terrible?
     
  16. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    If they put the emerald right next to the node to get all areas of the font covered, then it doesnt really put any pressure on me per ser, it just means I cant debuff them. If i have a champ that can only debuff for some reason, then worst case scenario is I leave the font and they get it. Again though, as the person with the spell I'm in control. If the above situation was happening, then I wouldnt cast festering wounds. Especially considering if all I really had out was debuff champs, then they would probably already have played emerald in the first place.
    This scenario is much much less common than the one I outlined though
     
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  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    So the only way for them to deny you contesting is to cover all spaces of the font with the Emerald? That doesn't sound right.

    Anyway, it seems more reasonable to assume that once the Emerald is out, it exerts a certain amount of pressure and has an effect on the game. Unlike a Festering Wounds that's been largely cleansed away.

    You can argue about how much influence the Emerald can have, but it is non-zero.
     
  18. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Now you're just being pedantic. My point and scenario remain the same. Varying placements in the font do not affect the outcome I was describing in either scenario.
    And again, this is just for KF and SP (or if you split with them) the other factions have no such luck
     
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  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I simply reject your original scenario where the Emerald has almost no impact apart from the instant cleanse as a common case.

    ~

    In any case, it seems silly to continue to discuss Emerald in particular. So let's try and push this discussion in a direction where we can talk about the efficiency of Festering Wounds.

    How do we measure its effectiveness? What values makes a spell of this type overpowered? What values would make it ok? How do we determine this? I suggested contrasting it to more direct AEs, but this was rejected since it's "completely different." So what other starting points should we consider?

    Or is it more fundamental? Should a spell like be allowed to exist? Is it a type of mechanic that simply shouldn't be allowed in PoxNora?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  20. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Yes
     
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