First the guns then free speech

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by super71, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    The idea always comes first, at this moment, Americans, Europeans, Muslims, Asians, African Americans, it no longer matters what your race is or gender or where you come from. It is now the people against tyrannical governments.

    If America ever loses its right to bear arms, that will be the end to the civilized world. America may do a lot of Bane Shift, we may cause problems worldwide, but we're always one of the first to come to everyone else's aide.

    Someone much smarter than I

    Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
  2. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    besides the whining we have come to expect from Super
    he considers retired jusdge + a whole bunch of kids + people Super doesn't agree with who are not even in power = tyranical goverment

    he also seems to be calling for violence and terrorist acts against his fellow americans and goverment.

    Now I have seen either him or profhulk say that the FBI should have responded to online posts from shooters so any of you other americans should do your civic duty and report him to the FBI:

  3. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE! do pro-gun Americans respond to other countries with gun laws not falling into an enslaved anarchy?

    Then how do they respond each and every time an actual country with dictators over throw there government despite far harsher laws then controlling guns.

    The real protection America has from dictators is a very elaborate set of laws that makes it very difficult to take control, something trump is putting to the test regularly now.

    At this point for the sake of a potential bloody revolution they are down paying lives in the millions, like they could over throw one of the most powerful armed militaries in the world with some hand guns and assault rifles....
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
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  4. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    Being determined, stealing tech, building tech, guerilla warfare, etc. All things that have been done throughout history, and continues to happen. This is one of the worst in favor of gun control.
  5. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    my understanding of the way guerrilla warfare works out in the US goes like this (we're all war-gamers of some sort here, if not also military history buffs and so forth, so do point out where you think i'm wrong):

    the odds of locals to any area knowing significantly more about it than the US intelligence apparatus does are slim. the chances for surprise attacks, ambushes, anything like that go way down.

    the tech and resources of the guerrilla force(s) will be vastly inferior, on average. they will not win an open battle (not that anyone fights those anymore, really)

    the US (and other allied forces) have fought in guerrilla conflicts and skirmishes for the better part of the last decade at least. the harder part for the average US armyman will be that he's shooting a (former?) citizen. the main way for guerrilla forces to damage the government or fight to pursue their ideals would be through civilian casualties.

    who the Firk would want them after that?

    now that's assuming two important things- the first, our military structure doesn't suffer a severe fracture. the second (i'd argue also more important), that outside forces (read: other countries) don't back the rebels. those take us into other directions pretty quick, but then the question turns into "which country are you choosing to try to build the new america?"

    but yeah i firmly believe random ragtag wannabe militia-type gangs stand no chance against the US military on US soil.
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  6. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    You make good points, certainly.
    However, having even the most meager means of defense against a tyrannical government is better than nothing. Better to die fighting for what you love and hold dear than to die doing nothing, or worse, be forced to help destroy what and whom you care about.

    While you make good points, I don't think it's a satisfactory argument for gun control.
  7. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    I like how you always skip straight to guns as the only means of defense. guns or nothing. bit black and white eh.

    why do your choices all require death or collaboration? you know there are other ways right?

    what about children getting shot?
  8. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    Just to play the devil's advocate here, if a tyrannical government DID come to power in the US, it would undoubtedly be in possession of guns. Defending oneself against guns without having access to guns is rather difficult.
  9. Dagda

    Dagda Forum Royalty

    we're assuming what, that any gun control is the same as taking away all guns?

    lemme be clear here- i don't think it's even possible to take away all the guns in america. we just have too many. the only way it would work is if the citizenry voluntarily gave up their weapons which, i think we can all Firking agree, isn't gonna happen in this country for a long damn time (if ever).

    what i'm saying is that to effectively rebel against the US, against government overreach of the sort the collective you seems to fear, your strongest choices towards success are either attack civilians or side with a foreign government. in either case, i'd not be likely to think of you as an american or a patriot.

    if you want to be able to die with a gun in your hand in defense of freedoms that stopped mattering years ago, that's fine. just don't expect it to mean anything either in the great scheme of things, or to much of anyone else (aside from those others who subscribe to the wild wild west idealism type of philosophy)

    except it wouldn't just be guns the government is using in that scenario. that's what people are getting at. even if you had whatever big-name assault rifles, they'd likely be far less useful to you as an insurgent than something like detailed information of prime government targets, or a foreign government supporting you (in which case they still likely arm you so hey).
  10. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    Are you currently aware of how your thinking about this subject is linear and flawed or not?
    trying to gauge where you are at with this devils advocate stuff.
  11. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    not sure what you intended to mean by the last part but none of what you suggested would be effected by gun control laws, and is indeed how every other country in the world has over thrown dictators when required historically....

    even if the government outright banned guns in america today, a toddler could still buy a gun in less then 5 minutes in any state in the country, they just have that many guns, and failing that, as america does to the rest of the world people would be smuggling guns into the country for black market sale, and failing that in the case of an actual rebellion other nations would supply arms to the rebels like america does to the rest of the world as well.
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
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  12. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    Seems pretty obvious to me.
    Explosives and armored vehicles could be added to the roster too.
    What, you expect rebellions to succeed with knives?
    Then again, knife crime is on the rise in Europe...

    Which are... What exactly? Doing nothing? Trying to run away?
    Those choices worked excellently for those living under the Nazis and Soviets, didn't they?

    That is the end goal of gun control. Many people may not really care to take it that far. But the arguments for more of it are the same for every level of it. And there will always be those that want no guns in the hands of citizens.


    Freedoms that stopped mattering? Please do tell what freedoms no longer matter.

    The guns (and other weapons) reeeeaaally help though. All the info won't help if you don't have the means to act on it.
    But yes, I do understand that point. I just think that it isn't sufficient for arguing for gun control.

    What on Earth are you referring to? Do you have some amazing alternative method of rebellion and protecting freedoms and oneself? Attack dogs? Drones with knives?

    I was giving a short list of some things that are used in addition the actual weapons. And the effectiveness of those things would be affected by gun control laws, yes.

    Wow. Okay. You clearly know very little about the amount of guns we have, how many people own them, the restrictions that exist and are maintained, etc.

    Sure. Who's gonna support it? Post soviet-bloc countries? They'd get stomped by Russia as soon as America fails to be there to help act as a deterrent.
    The EU? The UN? The UK? They'll be supporting the government.
    China? Hahaha. No.
    Japan? Maybe... They'd probably be more worried about more pressing concerns (China and North Korea).
    Australia? Lol. No.
    Mexico? The cartels, maybe. If the hypothetical rebels even considered working with them, maybe. Most Americans despise the Mexican cartels.
  13. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    @SireofSuns yes, but Im not gonna tell you cause I do not like you, furthermore I believe informing you of this will anger you more.
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  14. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

  15. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    To your point about who would fund it...every enemy of America in the world.

    Rebellions destabilize a nation as such an rebellion would get massive support as it would do a ton of damage to the nation the longer it goes on.

    If you think it' hard to get a gun in America you are really ignorant to your own country or just lieing
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  16. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    if the police turns evil does my aunt and their children join their husband/father as being evil or not?
  17. SireofSuns

    SireofSuns I need me some PIE!

    I wish to know what magical powers you hold. ;)

    So... Various Middle Eastern nations, China, Russia, and North Korea?
    China and Russia would have that capability.
    China would likely not do so, they would want stability so they can keep selling stuff to the US.
    Russia... Maybe. I think they'd be okay with a totalitarian US government, as the US would then be less likely to care about Russia or get involved.

    ...? It's a lot harder than you think. You need a license first, and trying to buy a gun without a license is very difficult and can easily lead to you getting arrested. Getting a license isn't too bad, but it takes a good bit of time and money.

    What does this have to do with the discussion?
    Are you asking that, if there were a rebellion, would people target the families and friends of policeman that remain loyal to the state? Probably, that happens in almost every rebellion. It's not good or right, but it happens.
  18. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    is your goverment robots?
  19. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    What kind of license are you referring to? I've never had an issue buying guns. Unless you mean driver's license, the closest I've come to needing a license to buy a gun was getting a Permit to Purchase from my local police station. I went in to the station, filled out this form and in a few days I received my permit. I only had to do that because I was buying a pistol. Rifles and shotguns don't require that in Minnesota.
  20. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    so you can just buy them then cross into a different state and then give them to someone else to be illegal firearms?

    so... the illegal guns are coming from inside the house?

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