This idea came from someone else in another thread. Why not change the FW bonus to simply cancel the opp bonus? Split vs solit could cancel 1 bonus at random, and a split vs full could change the opp ff bonus to also be a split bonus. This would solve the FW bonus being garbage, it would still be thematic (undead), and it synergize with the faction.
Except fw bonus is fine, please stop beating a dead horse already. We get it you like fw, I also like fw but don't want the bonus to be what defines them unlike every other faction currently. I also like to crutch on my doom, essence drain, mobo, fw nonsense so until that's all nerfed then you can't buff the bonus.
Because 2 turn Bile Zombie is garbage. Tired of people saying the FW bonus sucks when it is one of the top 3 best bonuses...
The minimum CD of Bile Zombie is currently 3 turns, not 2. It received a cost increase in a recent patch.
The fw bonus is not fine. It is literally non existent in most FW games. Think about what is needed to make it usable: you need to have a dead unit, THEN you need to play him immediately after it is off CD. This is leveraging the bonus to 100%. The conditions that are needed for this bonus to be of a noticeable effect are too much imo. Changing the bonus to cancel the opponents is such a good idea and is very easy to implement. FW has plenty of mechanics which scale off of opponents strengths (doom, ed, unholy tomb, skull of decay) that this would arguably fit the faction as a whole better than their current bonus.
According to the current cost valuation of other abilities in Pox, different full-faction bonuses have different effective nora values. Here's a chart: ----- FS -- 6 nora/turn Easiest to calculate... IS -- ~3.5 nora/champion The other effect that provides protection against spells specifically in the game is Spell Resistance (3 nora). Now, 50% reduction is not quite the same as 50% reduction -- the flat value is better against spells with less than 12 spell damage, worse against those with more then 13, and equivalent at 12 or 13. The de facto value for AoEs across Pox factions is about 10 or 12 spell damage; there are more spells that do less than 12 than do more, and so I figure the IS bonus is slightly better than Spell Resistance. KF -- ~8 nora/champion According to the current formula, SPD is valued at 8 nora per point, flat. Although as plenty of people have pointed out the SPD bonus often doesn't translate into a significantly faster faction because of designs made with the bonus already in mind, its nora value at 8/champion remains solid regardless. ST -- ~8 nora/champion The ST bonus grants 10 HP, which can be hard to value in the current formula. HP is handled by a logarithmic curve, where the marginal cost of HP decreases as HP total gets higher. Within the older formula, HP was .8 nora per point, though, and in lieu of more insight about valuation within the current formula, I'm going to use the old measure. FW -- ~3 nora/real champion Immortality costs 3 nora, and has as its components 5/8s of Scorn (a -3 ability) and 100% CDR. This means that 100% CDR is theoretically costed at 5 nora, and so 60% CDR would be costed at 3 nora. Now, there's an argument that Immortality's cost is depressed because of the interaction between the shrine damage component and the CDR over a long game, so 100% CDR could arguably be worth more than the calculated 5 nora in effect. It seems unlikely that it would be much more. UD -- ~6 nora/champion According to the current formula, DMG is valued at an average of 2 per point, with some minor variation around the extremes. This means that the UD bonus is worth a different amount on different champions. In an all-melee team, the UD bonus ends up worth roughly 8 nora/champion, but is worth half as much in an all-ranged team. A simple average would make it worth about 6 nora/champion. Although one could get into arguments about the ability to build around the effect and what it means for the bonus (and those arguments are worthwhile and important), I will stick with the simple average here. SL -- ~8 nora/champion The old SL bonus was most comparable to Scale Armor (10 nora), and at 80% of Scale Armor it equaled an even 8 nora. The current SL bonus is most comparable to Tough 2. Tough 2 is better than the current SL bonus because the current bonus does not protect against spells and, most significantly, DoTs. Exactly what effect those differences have upon its comparative value are up for debate. With respect to champion attacks only, the current bonus is better against attacks made at <10 DMG, equivalent at those made at 10-14 DMG, and worse against those made at >14 DMG compared to the old bonus. Considering that those ranges do not fall heavily upon one side or the other of average champion damage over the course of a game, I think it is fair to guess the current bonus as worth the same amount of nora as the old one. SP -- ~8.5 nora/real champion The SP bonus generates 12% of a champion's nora cost over its lifespan. Because 8 is 12% of 66.6, we can say that if a BG had an average champ cost of 66.6, the SP bonus would be worth 8 nora/real champion. At average champ cost of 75 (an important break-point with the current starting nora values), the SP bonus generates 9 nora/real champ. Although the SP bonus will scale up in value with higher nora costs and become worth less per champ at lower costs, I doubt its per-champ value would climb much above 9 in the current environment. The de facto average champ cost in Pox Nora calculations is 75 nora, but I think that most decks err slightly below that, so I think somewhere between 66 and 75 is a good champ cost assumption. ----- First, it is worth noting that, although most bonuses work on a per-champion basis, two (FW, SP) work per real champion, and one (FS) works per turn. These differences in operative unit have some implications for the bonuses' power. FS is more stable and versatile, despite generating slightly less than the common 8 nora in the event that a player is actually deploying every turn (one could theoretically cost the FS bonus at 8 nora/real champion by assuming that players deploy champions 3/4 turns). The FS bonus will be worth comparatively more if players play fewer champions, and worth less if they deploy more. As for FW and SP, those factions (ironically, given their themes) work the worst with Summons and Clones because those champion types do not benefit from the bonuses. Aside from these qualitative differences, a few quantitative differences stand out: First, I have estimated SP at the highest per-unit value of all the faction bonuses. I do not think that this higher estimation is particularly significant, however, first because the margin is a half-point, second because SP uses the inferior per-real unit, and third because it is already a fuzzy estimation that one could easily peg at 8 nora instead of 8.5 Second, five more factions hold at between 6 and 8 nora, with some variance depending on qualitative differences and estimation metrics. FS and UD hold at about 6, although both could be contextually valued at 8, either per champion or per real champion. SL and KF stick at a solid 8, with ST holding a softer 8, again based on estimation (but almost certainly 6 or higher). Finally, two factions have demonstrably lower estimated values than the other factions: IS and FW. Of the two, FW has an on-paper worse bonus both because of its lower value and because it depends upon the per-real unit. Qualitatively, both bonuses are also reactive or back-loaded, with FW being more so. These bonuses look to be worth at most half as much as the other faction bonuses. Despite this analysis, I have been a staunch defender of the FW faction bonus for years -- not only its flavor but also its utility. I am not on the above basis suggesting any changes. I do think, however, that it lends credence to some of the historical complaints about the FW faction bonus, namely that it is corner-case and not numerically valuable; even when abstracted, it stacks up poorly in value compared to the other faction bonuses. Dice also makes the point that it is easier for some bonuses to show no benefit. I think that, unfortunately, IS and FW are again foremost among these, with FS followed by SP being the most guaranteed. The FW bonus has a striking benefit compared to IS, however, in that it is possible to build with an intent to use it, while the IS bonus is completely dependent upon the opponent's actions, and merely affects their value calculations. In theory, one could buff the FW bonus up to about ~6 nora/real champion by making the full faction bonus grant 90% or even 100% CDR (along with minor reworks to things like Necroweave and the FW champions with Immortality). I do not think this would be a good idea. The FW bonus, although numerically disadvantaged, changes fairly fundamental game mechanics of rune accessibility in a way that other faction bonuses do not, and for that reason it is more powerful, especially in more extreme forms.
If were gonna make any argument for a new fw bonus, i'd say it limits the ways you can play the faction currently. The faction bonus itself though is very strong and works perfectly given the themes in fw and their mechanics. However since the bg focuses around getting units killed faster, which forces you only to play one way. I always pictured fw with like a debuffed version of lich born Full faction fw- Champion runes you own have their cool downs reduced by 30%, when a champion dies once and comes back it will get +1 damage and + 5 health, when it dies and is deployed a third time it has +2 damage and +5 health, and +2 defense. This does not work for short lived/ lich born or sacrificed champs. Split faction- Champion runes you own have their cool downs reduced by 15%, when a champion dies once and comes back it will get +1 damage and +5 health. This does not work for short lived/ lich born or sacrificed champs. This bonus works because it still uses the cool down reduction but now gives little buffs when your repeatedly deploying the same champs which also seems to fit fw quite well. You could use different fw abilities like life siphon or disease aura etc.
Good write up but I disagree with the valuation of CDR 100% vs a lower % comparison. I think 100% CDR is much much more valuable since you can use that champ right there and then.
Right, vampires being the perfect example. Simply negating the enemy bonus would literally work with any theme that it is currently available in the meta. And it would not be overpowered by definition, since there would always bonuses which are not worth blocking (IS for example). Sure, it might dictate the pace of the game a bit since it is negating their strategies / synergy with the bonus, but there are SO many mechanics which do this now anyways, it is dishonest to argue that point.
100% CDR allows for combo plays (ex: Bile zombie + worms + necroweave) along with premium use of hyper efficient champs (ex: transmission relay (pre-nerf) + shortlived dragon or hero dragon trio) In either case I believe the nora difference we would be discussing is 1 or 2 nora and you have already shown that the bonus is on the bottom as far as impact.
This I accept as different, though highly marginal. This I think is mostly nonsense, at least in that this is exactly what I have been arguing the FW bonus already does, and it is not qualitatively different at 100% CDR, it just amplifies the margins. But yes, I mostly agree with this anyway. I think the various interactive effects would come out in the wash between Immortality/Scorn/100% CDR and the FW bonus when evaluating its cost i.e. I think 3 is still a fair assessment of the current bonus. With this, however, I do not agree, and I've already talked a bit about why: though the FW bonus looks like it is worth less nora per champion within the above metrics and estimates, those do not pretend to capture the full extent of a faction bonuses range or potential interactions. For instance, I did not try to evaluate the gameplay effect that the IS bonus has on potential strategies e.g. a greater ability to turtle up owing to AoE protection. Within that frame, I think that the FW bonus can have an enormous effect. You mentioned premium use of hyper-efficient champs, and I think it is precisely that which makes the FW bonus not only provide versatility but generate real value. See for example a take on FW attrition that drastically shaves the number of champions: http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/fw-strong-meta-decks.27665/#post-385694
I disagree. The bonus does not change game mechanics. I think you'll agree with me on this point : many decks accommodate for the fact that decreased Cds are an advantage of FW, and include very few duplicate runes other than the absolute core runes of a bg. I can't think of a single FW theme which couldn't function with a "cancel opponent bonus ". Simply by adding more champions (duplicates), you would get a similar effect to what you have now. Sure bile zombie and skeletal bezerkers might take a hit, but in all fairness that probably is a good thing. The vampire theme, skeketon theme, lich, and witch theme would benefit from a change greatly. Zombie, and spirit would be neutral more or less (although spirit leans MUCH closer to benefiting after the haunting spirit gutting). Aarayo split would be neutral, and stitched would probably be neutral as well.
With what, exactly, do you disagree? I said a lot of different things in that post, and you quoted all of it.
Lets say that all sub 50 nora champs in FW were either: nerfed at their current cost to be inefficient or scaled so that they are still efficient but at a higher nora cost (50+). Would the bonus still be relevant? Seems like a lot hinges on few efficient/cheap champions at a particular nora threshold. Would the bonus be too powerful at 80%/40%? or even just 70%/35%? Or would this lengthen the window of champs that now have to be scrutinized for hyper efficiency? I think that since nora is a limiting factor that higher cost champs are less problematic then really cheap and efficient smaller champs.
