FW bonus

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jul 31, 2017.

  1. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    This seems like a really hard question to answer.

    Most non-FW BGs running the canonical 14-16 champs don't run out of deployment champions ever, regardless of game length. That can change based on the map, average rune cost, and the amount of nora, if any, the deck generates, but ~15 champs is enough to just barely keep up a functional deployment rate in the games that I have played. So, no, almost no decks operating under the current norms will run out in 20 rounds. Assuming a 75 nora champion average, and 1 champion dying every round, 15 champions means perfect cycling. The non-FW player will end up choked on their options, but they probably will be able to play something.

    If we are going to reference game length further, I think it would be worth talking more about how we are building our standards. The current "standard game" is 15 rounds, and we've tossed on another 5 to get a "standard FW game" of 20 rounds, but I'm not really satisfied with that for much deeper analysis because FW games can very wildly in length, and game length per se is especially important to talking about FW compared to other factions.
     
  2. xaznsoulx

    xaznsoulx Supreme Dream Team 夢想 隊

    hangover.png the answer is 42
     
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  3. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    Pretty much what Yobanchi said, though without getting into all those complications I think it it's fairly clear to see that alot of bgs suffer less from long drawn out games when compared with others. Wether or not that justifies some kind of buff or not I don't know but it is something that makes the fw bonus somewhat situational and I don't like that.
     
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  4. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Gimmicky
     
  5. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I think you meant suffers more. Which is part of my argument.
     
  6. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    FW has lots it's bonus soul. When you had 20 rune docks the threat of running out of champs was very tangible which is why the bonus could be felt as a definite value. with 30 rune bgs non-FW bgs essentially never run out of champs which makes it humorous on the faction page when it is listed as one of the factions strengths. The other strength being low cost champions.

    Yes the bonus still has an 'effect' in that you have some marginal increase in deployment options. I find the faction "Note: Forsaken Wastes tends to be best played by more advanced players" fitting seeing how there is so much discussion on how to even use the bonus or squeeze out some sort of value from it besides flavor. The SL bonus was changed without horrendous rebalancing due to removing unnecessary complexity.
     
  7. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    You really can't intuitively say the that the total bonus is X-1, it is more similar to an f(x) = formula, with some extremely complicated variables, and calculations needed to determine the value of each unit would recieve from said bonus.

    Although one this very clear: the value of the bonus can be (theoretically) determined by statistical analysis, and the ability of said bonus to create positive win rate. The same can be said of any bonus in the game.

    This is precisely why your binary model fails. It does not account for value relative to game state. It only proves that a player can have an equal value playing a rune a two completely different turns (which was really the only point you wanted to prove as per your model).

    What I said was that FW benefits from low cost units, because they have an actual material value added at a sooner point in time SPECIFICALLLY to make up for the detriment that they have for not having added stats in the first place. The example wasn't meant to say "this is the only way a rune will benefit from the bonus " it was meant to show an example of how ACTUAL win rate is likely to be accrued, WITH use of the bonus.

    Your model does not take into consideration at ALL what the opponent is doing during his turns, and how THAT is limiting (exponentially in a level playing field) what options you have, if you do not have ACTUAL value from your bonus.

    Again, the longer you wait for your "Z" turn, the less control you will have in your game, because the opposing player is limiting your "a, b, c" options.
     
  8. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I absolutely agree with this. I really can't think of too many practical examples where the CD of utility of deploy was better than the flat bonus. The times I have found the most value, was when spamming cheap units, to which the opponent can not counter, or has a very cost inefficent way of dealing with. Which is exactly why I find the bonus to be gimmicky, because it revolves around the opponent not being able to deal with x runes or y combinations, mainly.

    Long games are interesting with FW, because you actually see your bonus have value on units you wouldn't v want in an ideal state, such as tomblords, or units which benefit from being alive. However, 2 points.

    It seems first, in these states where games feel less gimmicky, I only pseudo benefit from being able to squeeze a few more spells and equips in. I rarely find a practical application of all runes every game, and it seems as though it was still my initial draws that got me to this point to begin with.

    Secondly, in these game states, I notice when vsing Sp, they seem to be in a better position most of the time, which I can't help but attribute to the fact that the lower CD after all runes are revealed is not very powerful. I'm not really trying b to sound biased about that , just an honest observation. The extra utility from nora, which can be converted to an extra spell or whatever, is better than the ability to be able to deploy more champions
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  9. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Do you think that this is the kind of thing that could ever come back, or would it require too many fundamental mechanical changes?
     
  10. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    That's a good question and I think it is possible to do by having the FW bonus also effect enemy CD.
    There are also a number of spell/ability counters already out there that would make more sense with that.
     
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  11. free20play

    free20play I need me some PIE!

    honestly i wouldn't really care if fw bonus got changed.
    right now its kinda boring and if you are doing well its non existent.
    have no clue what a new fw bonus would be.
    though if someone creative could come up with an interesting take on it and it was again creative and interesting i'd be all for it.
     
  12. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    What if -- get this -- the new FW bonus interacted with a rarely-touched mechanic in Pox that could simulate all of your champions benefiting from undeath, and, unlike the other dumb numerical bonuses, would require some careful consideration of deck construction and precise execution in game to take advantage of it, but would potentially be more powerful than them? I have a great idea for a faction bonus that would do exactly that, if you'd just hear me out...
     
  13. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    *gets popcorn* I'd like to hear it.
     

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