FW rune reworks

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by mortemdeus, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. mortemdeus

    mortemdeus Member

    Just a list of changes I think would be nice. Thoughts?

    EDIT: So, this became a lot more popular than I expected (though I doubt it was because of my post :p ) so I am going to make more!!!!

    Exotic's:

    Bloodworm: Put bleed and bloodlust on base. Add assault to the aggressive and multi-attack tree. Add Creep and Creep and Crawl to the life siphon tree.

    Bone Elemental: Round out the assault/charge tree with another stat boost (like damage +1 or HP +10 or something)

    Corpse Golem: Round out the rabid/disease tree with death nova: Disease 3

    Draco-Lich: Remove disease breath 1 and 3, move disease breath 2 to base, replace the breath tree with Rabid 2, disease aura 2, and amplify disease.

    Hoarfrost Lich: Remove chill 1 and 2, replace with surge: lich 1 and frost cone 3. Add Freeze to the frost acolyte/crystallize tree.

    Inkblight Witch: Remove curse 1, add hex 2 and drudgery to the curse upgrade tree.

    Mairdreth of the Rot: Put black death on base, move rabid 3 to the black death spot. Remove rabid 2, add disease breath 3 and revel in misery to the foul strike tree.

    Serkan Lich Master: Remove Cripple from base and weary, frost cone 1, and frost cone 2 from the upgrade tree. Add a new tree consisting of Surge: Spirit 1, Surge: Lich 1, and Surge: Skeleton 1 to one upgrade tree. Move frost cone 3 to the other tree.

    Rares:

    Necromancer: Move Elsari Coven to base. Remove Curse 1. Add hex 2 and soulharvester to the curse tree. Add Surge: Skeleton 1 to the boost skeleton tree.

    Uncommons:

    Abomination: Remove berserker 2, pulverize 1, and pulverize 2 from upgrade trees. Add Pummel 3 and move berserker to the pulverize 3 tree. Add Regeneration 1 and rotting blows to the blood rage tree

    Blood Fiend: Remove exertion 1 and 2. Move life siphon to the exertion tree and add Blood Rage. Add soul drinker to the bleed and lifedrinker tree.

    Commons:

    Boneguard Infantry: Remove block 2 from upgrade tree. Add sunder to the block tree.

    Decayed Mercenary: Move Unstoppable to base, Remove Block 1, add cleave to block tree and damage shield (physical) 1 to the old unstoppable placement.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  2. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    I like the idea of differentiating bone guard and decayed mercenary more...they are very similar.

    Bloodfiend is currently in a pretty good place at the moment. I think he's an 11 ap font capping monster.

    Bloodworm and necromancer do need theme synergy taps.
     
  3. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    was there any word on the magister?
     
  4. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

  5. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    @Ragic
    Any specific ideas on magister?
    His cost is mainly due to the current hefty price on spell blockade but even with a tap to that he would still be in the 70's.

    What are your thoughts on this...
    Path 1- Magic acolyte, adaptive IS, Adaptive FW (his healing upgrades, adaptive IS is more of a nod towards the dwarven magister I guess so purely flavor)
    Path 2- Favor, Soulsift 1, soulsift 2 (Turns him into more of a tempo hit then a Nora hit. With soul sift though he becomes much more likely to be abused in UD splits with sac/ret)

    Thankfully soulsift no longer works with sac effects so that should be curbed at least.
     
  6. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    What are opinions on reworking Unholy Tomb and tapping Mobi?
    If mobi were to receive the ire I would not want to have it simply go to 60 nora like Sl's power turn spells.
     
  7. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    depend you plan to nerf or buff unholy tomb and mobilization?
     
  8. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    @yobanchi
    Undead Magister
    : He isn't supposed to survive. In his previous iteration, after spell blockade went off, the smart play was to kill him yourself asap because the cooldown on the champ was shorter than the cooldown on spell blockade (8 turns!). If I remember right, the cooldown on that starts after the effect triggers, not after the ability is used. So even if you give the magister survivability, he still will never be worth his cost because he can only pop blockade one time reasonably in a game. It was better when they were cheaper. Otherwise people will just run Ancients Protection. That's the slot the magister is competing for, not with another skeleton. He lost his magic bomb so there is no other use for him anyway.

    Having a cheap magister that you wanted to die fit with FW's flavor and playstyle (especially death benefit decks) it was a long time before he even got race skeleton, and once he did, he plugged in nicely where ancients protection used to be. 1x or 2x. Was he made expensive on purpose because people felt spell blockade was too strong? I don't see how it can cost more than ancients protection which is hidden. unless its the fact AP has a duration.

    My first suggestion was to add short lived 1 on base to the magister. This will shave 25 nora off his cost. I believe spell blockade goes away if the magister dies, so this in effect adds a duration to it. It makes the use of the magister more tactical, you cant just deploy him and forget about it. You need to use him within the few turns that you want spell protection. And when he is done with his job, he dies for you. So death benefit will like him again.

    If he cant get short lived because they want to make him viable for IS splits, may I ask how many IS/FW players are running him now? They would probably prefer ancients protection as well. So with regards to the upgrades, survivability should not be the focus. I care less about the upgrades tbh, because his function is dictated soley by spell blockade and short lived 1 should not be optional. But there should be some way to get his cost to the next cooldown cut off below 64. I think its 54 but im not sure. Adding Pariah (-5 nora) to one of the upgrade slots should do it and gives him some flavor continuity with the scorched dwarf. dwarves in other factions are pariah, yadda yadda. Its also good because if youre trying to run as cheap as possible for CD recycling, then you have to give up on poping him yourself with devour, repurpose or altars.

    If we are going to be stuck with cooldown reduction as a bonus, then at least let us have a few champs that can use it in a theme other than death benefit.

    Unholy Tomb: if this thing is being targeted for a nerf then I would rather see its dmg applied to all champs before it receives a nora hike. the tempo hit argument cant be stressed enough. yes I see it used in many games, but I also see the FW player down a font in those games as well.

    Mobilization: First nerf for DB and quickening was to make it so that after the spell was cast no other spell can be cast that turn. again, id rather see this than a nora hike. double mobi turns are kinda cheesy anyway and the only other spell that I would combo with mobi is domination for a long range cliff dive, which is also kinda cheesy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
    SaintKiwi and Sirius like this.
  9. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    I'd like to see spell cooldown disconnected from nora cost. There are quite a few spells that have had their nora cost increased not because of the effect, but because of the cooldown.
     
  10. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    I would like to see
    Blockade
    While this champion is in play, opposing champions cannot gain AP for their first turn in play and are Distracted 1 (This unit may only activate basic attacks)
    make its way back onto a champion. There are 43 champions with Initiative and a few spells that produce runes that can have AP on casting with only 2
    champions with the blockade ability

    AS well as for a new ability for a FW champ
    Siege Lord
    No relics can be played from the runedock while this champion is in play.
    I am not sure why this type of ability isn't being used more
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  11. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    On the subject of Spell Blockade vs Ancient's Protection: I really think the added risk involved in casting Ancient's Protection and any other 'Shrine damage for powerful effect' spell/ability should be more realistic. Shrine killing is the game's official wincon after all. Maps like the SP map make the attempt to hit the weakened Shrine a silly endeavor, thus negating the risk/counterplay opportunity involved with such effects. If people had to think a bit more/be a bit more worried when using Shrine damaging spells, I think it would indirectly "buff" Undead Magister. I'm still in favor of a cost drop, but I just wanted to mention that I think revising maps and remembering the game's wincon is part of a healthier fix.
     
    Nite2kill likes this.
  12. mortemdeus

    mortemdeus Member

    For a UT rework I would suggest the following: "Every time a non-undead champion is played it looses 1 hp and you gain 2 nora." You still get the same basic ability but it no longer is every time all the time. Also allows for some interesting non-undead battle groups.

    For mobilization, just make it unique. It is very strong. Lowering the AP boost is also an option but anything below 3 negates its usefulness.
     
  13. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    would that AP be recovered the next round or will it be lost all together - if lost forever it would hurt FW more than any other faction being that most of our non-undead champs have 6ap
     
    Ragic likes this.
  14. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Let's say for arguments sake that Mobilization/Unholy Tomb is getting a nerf.

    What are people's thoughts on this:

    Mobilization: 45 nora, All champions (friendly/Enemy) gain 3 ap.
    This taps the impact and efficiency of the rune but opens up possible synergy and deck building with rebuke bgs making bone wing seem less bland.

    Unholy Tomb: 35 nora At the beginning of your turn all non-undead lose 1 hp and all undead gain 1 max hp. (remove the nora gain altogether as that's what people have a fit about)

    Thoughts?

    Also is there anything in FW that you thing is too strong other then these two spells?
     
  15. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    i really can not stand to see fw take any more big hits.
     
  16. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    so this is the non champ revamp getting underway I guess? because I wouldn't put mobi or UT above some champs as the most nerf worthy things in FW right now.

    were you told anything about the nerfs that could guide us like, 'we are nerfing nora gen so UT isn't gonna make nora any more'? assuming that is the case, id like unholy/holy to mean wrath/protectorate ( I think there is precedence for this, see smite enemy). using 'undead' as a trigger just makes non-undead in FW feel even worse than they already do. FW =/= undead anymore.

    with regards to mobi, are you really thinking of changing our signature spell to make a legendary most don't have better for split decks? cuz that's the only place your gonna see the rebuke mechanic being used. plz consider my original suggestion.
     
  17. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    What are the most nerf worthy runes in FW right now in your opinion?

    As for your ideas on Mobi I mostly don't agree...
    True DB and quickening received the 'only once a turn' but they've repeatedly received additional cost nerfs on top of that. Also the possession argument won't work as you can simply cast that before mobilizing. You would have to have dominate be a no other spells per turn as well but then it simply shifts to champs with invigorate or elsari bazaar.

    With it being a once only spell I'd probably see this up to 60 nora and be right there with DB/Quickening but IMHO it becomes too expensive and boring.

    Would 55 nora for 4 global ap to friendly/enemy champs be a fare cost?

    In my humble opinion a better way to deal with overly powerful things is to laterally shift its impact so that it goes from hi cost hi impact to mid cost mid impact but more synergy. It also interacts with punish/punishing aura's too.

    Unholy tomb I've always thought was fine but it's always been a lightning rod of hate due to the nora gain. Would people hate it as much if it did the 1 loss of life to only enemy champions and had death harvest but went down to 35 nora?
     
  18. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    UT is fine the way it is
    actually you are taking a risk deploying UT cause it 50 nora you have to assume that your opponent is going to spam champions (if you are deploying within first 3 turns) within the first 5 turns or atleast have more than X number of champions deployed for it to be effective otherwise if your opponent develops slowly taking out UT will be pointless
     
    mortemdeus likes this.
  19. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    @yobanchi
    My thoughts so far:

    Spell Blockade
    Mentioned this before, but spell blockade seems to be "too powerful to exist". The limitations it needs makes it unusable as a champion ability. It is essentially a spell that sits on a champion, making everything else the champion is useless. This is only true now that it has been given a "true" cost. My suggestion for the Magister would be to lose Spell Blockade and fufill his role in another way. Remove Blockade from him and grant him Weaken Spells and Train: Spell Resistance. They both exist, they both compliment his purpose and they would reduce his cost by 41 nora.

    Mobilization
    There are two ideas I liked the sound of.
    1. A mild cost reduction and having it grant 2AP and an additional 2AP at the end of your turn.
    2. Mild cost reduction and change it to be AoE 3.

    Unholy Tomb
    I think you need to ask yourself if 1 damage and 1 max hp gain each round is worth 35 nora. The build up would be immense and the difference it would make for each individual champion would be very small. The reason nora was a greater influence was because its gain was not spread out as the health would be. Maybe UT could be a more thematic nora gen for a single race?
    1. Nora: 20, When a spirit is deployed from the rune dock, it gains Essence Capture. If the spirit already has Essence Capture, you gain 5 nora instead. (You would need to deal 66 damage to repay it's cost. Maybe it should be even cheaper?)
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
  20. Ragic

    Ragic I need me some PIE!

    As to most nerf worthy things. surge 2 probably needs to go away (from everything).

    mobilization: making it an AOE 3 is an interesting idea. and perhaps have it affect all units within the aoe, friendly and enemy. it needs to be at least 4 ap though imo or else it loses its purpose of getting a 2nd attack in for a power turn. another thought might be to globably reset all champs attack chain? that way the effect of mobi is concentrated solely on getting a 2nd attack and not any other use of ap (like movement). have to reevaluate the cost though, maybe 45.

    unholy tomb: what if this was a 'nora gain' amplifier like other relics can amp dmg? So things like soul harvest, dead eater, essence capture.. would get 10% more nora? drop its cost to 35 and allow 2x per deck.

    spell blockade: I like @Fikule 's idea on how to change the magister if mine is a no go.

    btw, if after trees get their proper nerf and it ends up being skeletons that people are complaining about, I would suggest that the bone splinters (the mini bone maulers) are the first place to look. either their hps are bit too high or their dmg ramp up is too fast (maybe change it from +2 to +1).
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
    chickenpox2 likes this.

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