Gender studies banned in Hungary

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Alakhami, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This is a constant fallacy of the right. And it makes sense - those in the majority tend to believe that things will just work out because that's how it is in their experience. It's like when @super71 asked why people in Honduras just don't go to the police. It's unfathomable to those who are privileged that people might not actually have the same choices that they do. Of course, they don't view this as privilege, it is simply the way things are, and the way things are is good.

    The mantra is always freedom and liberty, particularly freedom of religion, but you also quickly find that, especially with the Christian right is that this is not intended to apply to everyone. In fact, it is quite clear through their words and actions that they mean freedom to believe as they do, and behave as they believe to be moral, and liberty for those who share their values. For everyone else? All bets are off. If you don't like it, you should just go away. Because freedom is for them, not for you.

    This is why they tell you that certain thoughts are "un-American," that you should just relocate, that you are destroying the family, that you are causing harm to society. These are all just codephrases for: "Your thoughts/behaviors are incompatible with my worldview and I don't like it."

    This is also why while the Christian right has a problem with "indoctrination" with schools - the truth is that they don't have a problem with are indoctrination (even in schools) at all... as long as it is THEIR values. It's only a problem if what is being taught leads them away from their own indoctrination. They want to "protect" their children, not from harm, but from exposure to alternate point of views that challenge their personal and religious worldviews.

    It's why they refuse to engage with the facts of this matter, and continually claim that it is "wrong" or "weird." They even invoke "nature" and "genetics" even though they fundamentally fail to understand that those things don't actually back up their argument at all.

    The moral panic invoked by the Christian right often mentions children, but as far as I can tell, it's really about themselves more than anything.


    Now, of course, there are some on the right who aren't Christian/Religious, but it's a generalization that fits most of them. And the above still largely applies even if you removed the religious component anyway.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
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  2. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    Cultures change this has always happened always will, the fact that opinions on gender are changing would indicate that it is cultural. I think it would be foolish to attempt to put culture and demographics in stasis simply because some of us here fear change.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  3. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    It’s impossible to have a conversation with you @Sokolov , you’re so focused on the political divide. Just look at the tone of my and darklords conversation and yours.

    You are so focused on making people who disagree with you look/feel bad/stupid.

    Debating with you is about as satisfying as playing your Pox Nora.
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  4. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    1) You quoted me, then said something I didn't say, then said the thing you said was "lot of fallacy". Would you like me to clarify my point or were you just being passive aggressive? If its the clarification you're after, my point was emotion in business is silly. You'll really only find it at the small-business level. As a small business owner I'm not going to refuse a single piece of business that comes my way unless I cannot complete the requirements. In steel, for example, I have to refuse business that requires tolerances levels greater than I can ensure with my machinery. But if I went and refused business based on an emotional decision, thats dollars out of my pocket... no sir, not gonna do it. I have 5 colleges, 5 cars and 3 weddings to pay for.

    2) The assumption that everyone has the means to relocate is, indeed, a fallacy. But again, thats not what I said. I was talking commons sense. If you are not around like minded people, its unlikely you'll find people of the same mind as you.

    3) Lumping gender choosers in with race is tricky. Those of a race did not choose, those of a gender outside of their DNA did choose (inb4 sok posts some link to a medical anomaly). But that doesn't mean I agree with people denying service. But lets just agree that the plight of the racially oppressed was/is far more reaching (right to freedom, voting, education etc) than that of the guy who feels like he's a girl.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  5. Schmacko

    Schmacko I need me some PIE!

    I understood your point. My point was that there are numerous examples of people in very recent history refusing service to a group of people despite it being what you're referring to as an emotional response or something that doesn't make good businesses sense. The fallacy being twofold 1. That you think other business owners will live by the same logic you seem to be applying to your own business. 2. That the market will self correct and businesses that do discriminate will suffer for it to the point they change course - at the national/multinational level they often do, but at the local level, not necessarily as much.

    There is a point in being discriminated against for something that is a choice and something that isn't. I won't get into that many of the people who feel like they're being discriminated against don't necessarily feel like their lifestyle is a choice, because in a lot of ways the issue should be simpler than that. Its just civil rights - People generally just want to live their lives and not be punished for being. Like you brought up the golden rule. If everyone lived by that philosophy there wouldn't even be a discussion on this topic. People would just let other people be.
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  6. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    There's also another reason for businesses to discriminate, especially in smaller markets. I've read that approximately 4% people in the US are homosexual. I also looked and nearly 24% of people in the US are Catholic. I know not all Catholics take issue with homosexuals, I just needed a group for an example. Having been raised Catholic, I have a fairly good understanding of their stance, at least until 2000.

    A bakery has 100 customers, that fit the makeup above. The Catholics object to the business owner selling to the homosexuals, and threaten to go to another bakery if sales continue. The owner can give up 4 customers or 24 customers. The market would dictate that the owner give up the 4. Let's say there are 4 bakeries in town. Each of the bakeries has the same decision to make. With 16 unserved homosexual customers, is that enough to have a 5th bakery to serve them? Probably not.

    In a larger market there may be enough people in the surrounding area that appreciate what the business owner did that they will travel to become new customers, outweighing the 24 that were lost.
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  7. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    your opinion cannot coexist alongside the modern psychological understanding of gender dysphoria.
    one of them has to be wrong.
    you wanna place a bet?
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Pretty much. There's also the argument that's often made that it could be worse, but that's pretty much a non argument regarding whether you should do something.

    Imagine if your kid came home with a bunch of Ds on his report card and said, "It could be worse, I could be failing." That's not an argument to not try to do better.
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I think this is a point that's regularly missed by free market proponents. And it doesn't matter whether it is discrimination or some other unethical business practice - especially with a global economy, you only need enough business to survive.

    In fact, discrimination MIGHT in fact be part of your branding strategy. Why do you think companies are so eager to tell you they are raising the minimum wage, or support gender equality, or have environmentally friendly practices? It's all virtue signalling to their target demographic.
  10. Geressen

    Geressen Forum Royalty

    this is pretty topical and entertaining

    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  11. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    When it goes beyond sexual identity? I really don't see how this can go wrong as long as gender doesn't change to any kind of identity in general. Gender fluidity assumes sexual fluidity, hence, it's simply not as rigid as male/female and isn't necessarily confined to the self-identification and self-expression which accompanies those roles.

    As a female? Sure, if that's truly how you feel gender wise. a 6 year old girl? not so much. Why can you not see the difference?

    It's not simply about being happy. It's about acknowledging the existence of a particular part of people, which are denied that due to stereotypical thinking. Same thing was with gay people until relatively recently.

    Bunch of truisms. You think I'm so ignorant or do you feel like prating every now and again?

    Where did you get the idea that it's about happiness? And what makes you think that the demand isn't based on sound and elaborate arguments?

    Personally, fine with the way things are as it is. I don't suffer any discrimination that can harm me. I grew up in Russia -- a harsh country with a lot of what you'd call "toxic masculinity" and was quite frequently disparagingly called a girl or people attempted to bully me because of that. But I got used to the general agressiveness of the people of my country and I also realized, through introspection, that it's simply a matter of my own opinion and reaction -- I can choose to not get agitated over what other random people think or say simply cause it's not worth the time and effort. Simply put -- I'm a mentally confident grown ass man that's not overly dependant on other peoples opinion and can defend himself if needed.
    Yet, I don't think that that's a healthy environment to grow up in for some one that could be like me and could potentially face a similar predicament. And my situation wasn't as harsh as it is for those who experience gender dysphoria or those that are transgenders and I genuinally wish for their identity to be accepted in society, because in my opinion, the way it currently is isn't a healthy environment for them, and I do think that the society should provide a healthy existential atmosphere for all people to ensure that we live harmoniously and productively, both physically and spiritually.

    No. Gender has a different meaning nowadays, although it's a common misconception that gender and sex are merely synonyms. I don't quite follow where you're going here, so please elaborate.

    What part did you not understand? Are you not versed in gender studies or philosophy? I used pretty basic terms from both, and not because I tried to sound smart. If you can simplify my sentence without losing its meaning, be my guest. I did my best to to explain what I meant as clearly and coherently as possible.
    I'll reiterate that I am perfectly fine with the way society treats ME as of now (in terms of gender), but other people are clearly suffering unjustly, and that can be solved. I see no reason why we shouldn't fix that if we are to be benevolent and compassionate beings.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  12. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

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