Great Wall of Witch ideas

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by Mercer Skye, Aug 24, 2014.

  1. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    Great Wall of Text incoming, brace yourself;

    I liked Blood Banshee for what she was trying to do, be a bridge between two themes inside our ranks, between witches and spirits. It saddens me that we're considering removing her DMZ interactions to turn her into....something. I was fond of her 'roguishness' as a non-standard combatant. I can agree with losing fascinate (As much as a stealth capable unit with it was fun), but I don't know, I'm probably in the minority that wants to see her stay a bridge between the two themes (and likely in the minority for liking 'in house' splits at all), but /shrug. She'll see more use, but I'd warn that introducing a second pain curse champ with it still being global might cause issues. If anything, it needs to be changed to hit only those targets on DMZ.

    There's no way I can't like this. It's a sword that makes spirits. I've said it before and am happy it might be finally happening, this needed to be split, or just outright stolen for a long time. Now we just need to finally get the Demolich back, and we'd be set. (*hint* *hint*)

    The only part of this I disagree with is Quest: Kill. It kind of works against his role. Which admittedly is sticking around soaking up tons of damage and then coming back as a Lich Knight. But we still want to see that Lich Knight show up (One of the best sprites in the game). Vulnerability Magic worries me a small bit. I know it's to smooth the cost out better (He IS bloody expensive), but given that immunity would override it, I'm not sure if it would be focused on in threads to come. Personally think these are fine changes, but if we're aiming for a more cohesive, defined list of changes for one theme, he's taking up a slot that witches or whatever we agree on can be using.

    Why does he look more combat oriented? I've always pictured CoS as a nuanced supporter. Gaining power in the dead, and bolstering your forces through buffs, and admittedly, the Restless Souls ability does look perfect. But why Soul Feast? Soul Channeling? Soul Collection? It seems we just typed 'soul' into a search box and crammed them in there. Would rather see impart, improve weapon, etc filling up that second upgrade path, still. He seems to be a Jack of All Trades in this rendition, when he should just be sucking souls and imparting their power.

    I guess we became the curators for the Stitched theme, but really, I'd much rather see their buffs being handled as their own special corner of the world, and not soaking up much needed FF space. I love the little guys, but priorities are priorities.

    Sure, why not? No idea how much of our 'buff space' this would take up, but more useful equipment is always a benefit.

    So we've pretty much gotten Gedden's full backing on FW being fine as an attrition faction, and we want to take up probably THE worst possible bonus for that? This was a good idea (but not really) back when SOE pretty much said 'is rush or die' in Pox. The game is no longer being decided by the time the last few runes are drawn, and this is only going to hasten us to a point where we quite literally will have no bonus instead of it just seeming as such. My idea stems from one I plan on posting in General; All faction bonuses should be some form of nora generation (This would shake up a lot of stuff). In FW's case, ours would be pretty simple. Whenever a real champion dies, we gain nora equal to 10% of the unit's cost (Or some amount that would equal to a predetermined average that all factions should generate). Roll the cooldown reduction into boon, as suggested, and lighten its load a bit. I can agree to losing the 20% globe recovery, and the poison resist, but I'm not sure I like the idea of losing fearless on Boon. Maybe it would need a cost readjustment, But I'd like to see it as Boon of the Undead; Fearless, 60% CD reduction, Immune to Disease. But this also stems from the fact that I believe there should be varying ranks of fear mechanic as well (Fear, terrify, horrify, etc.).

    All together, these both are things I would put on the back burner until such a time as Faction, Font, and widespread racial bonuses are addressed across the entirety of Pox.


    The only real change I want to see with Necrosis and Worm Lord before leaving it alone until such a time as a good sampling of games can be played with them is as follows;
    Necrosis; When this unit is deployed, your shrine deployment zone is increased by 2. When this unit is destroyed, your shrine deployment zone is decreased by 1.
    Worm Lord; Champions in your shrine deployment zone have Impassioned and Shrine Defender. If this unit destroys a champion, your shrine deployment zone is increased by 1.

    I intentionally left the expansion off of the Necrosis, and put it onto the Worm Lord. They should be the ones 'in charge' of expansion. But whatever changes happen, I strongly believe they need to be left alone in order to see just what's going on with them. A couple weeks of testing just isn't enough, in my opinion.



    On a broader note, I fully agree with the idea that we should be focusing on one theme at a time until the majority of the FW community agrees that the theme (or rune set) that we're working on is in a good place. I put that rune set in parentheses because when we get to Liches, or if we work on them first, I'd like to see them become more lynchpin pieces that, as I said in their thread, work more like commanders of a horde rather than a bg chock full of liches. Make them key pieces in a broader scope of FW utility than something you need to jam into a battlegroup.

    But, if we're looking at witches in general;

    The change to Coven was immeasurably great for their theme. Now there's no need to take coven on a unit other than those witches you want to center around (And Fleshweaver can now be a part of the party without being forced to take a path)

    Witching Hour; Anything looks better than what's there. If you look at KF's spell list, Eriluun's Favor grants 1 spd to all your units for a full 5 rounds (10 Turns). It costs the same, and the use is marginally better than Witching Hour.....KF players still don't really use it. Too much of that 30 nora budget is being put towards that +1spd, which really only amounts to 3ap over the 3 rounds it's active. Or at least I'm hoping that's where all that budget went, because Flight and Revel sure as hell can't be taking up that much of it.

    What I'm thinking. For the next 6 turns, witches gain Flight (Teleport?), hit and run, and deal 50% more damage to units with the cursed condition. Leave the cost as is, but it might be necessary to adjust later.

    So, spitballing, I'm kind of shooting this one from the hip, but going through the list and hitting the ones I think need the most attention;

    -Archfiend is first on the list, and in all honesty, I think the only thing he really needs is Hidden: DMZ. A more situational stealth, but I really hate that for whatever reason he lost it. (Oh, and he is a witch now for those that missed it). I like the 'Pox Lore' idea that they're building here with a closer tie between witches and vampyres. But this one would be quick and dirty. Either on base or in upgrades (path 1 shoudl work, probably replacing Ally)

    -Dark Enchantress. I don't think anyone in FW can look at her and tell me with a straight face they'd pay 73n for what she brings to the board. And that's her cheapest toolkit. Possess being as gimped as it is thanks to prestige and cleanse, and her being squishy as all get out, and Fear/Charm in 1 rank.... First, that Phase Shift needs to become vaporize. Second, charm 1 in upgrade path 1 should really become Abash. Fear 1......sure, need a cheap option for when you need to climb out of the rare league, I guess. Coven can stay. Possess is her thing, and there's no way she can lose that without losing her purpose. But maybe Voices in their Head can make an appearance as a third option. And looking at Imp Deceiver's toolkit, there's no way it costs that much. Her stat line is pretty deplorable, but I'm not sure if she really needs that attack damage and a basic attack at all. And her being a vampyre without any personal way of healing hurts my heart. Blood Knowledge sounds like a good boon if she keeps an attack (drains nora?), or blood magic if we can bump her cost down in losing the attack. LOTS of ways to make her viable.

    -Dark Seductress....I just don't know what to do with her. I'd hate to gimp witches with a whole lot of possession units, but that really seems like the best way to take her. Only, to make her an option over Enchantress above, other than stealth, maybe energy thief and detection? That statline is pretty deplorable, but I'm fine sacrificing stats since witches have always felt like more of a control theme than a combat theme. Voices in their Mind (redundant, I know, but it's such a tasty ability) on the same upgrade path as Hex? I really don't think she needs to have to choose between all three. Maybe a hard rank of Possess 2 (unlike enchantress's choice between 2/3). No reason we can't have two mind controllers with different flavors.

    -Elder Bloodbinder Either that 5-6 range or Greater Vampirism has to be weighing her down (aside from the obvious boob joke). I just don't see how exactly she costs so much. Especially now that she doesn't have vaporize (Which isn't bad, it makes her manageable, this is one of those sputtering, looking at what other factions can get spending that kind of nora). Maybe just some special attention to see exactly what it is making her cost so much. And I don't know how much it would bump her price up, but it's kind of sad to see her have to pick between blood magic and dark raven, moving one to base and leaving her cost the same? I dunno, it's not that she doesn't bring some heavy impact to the board (boobs), but it feels like you just have to pay to dang much for it.

    -Elsari Swordmage. The Bladewitch. Personally looks quite fine to me, I just can't help but think he's missing something. Other than maybe the ability to teleport and do something other than store AP. One of his worst points. Would almost be willing to give up Loyalty (another one 'those dumb abilities) for one more point of speed. Would allow for a teleport and tap, and with the exploit refund of AP, a double tap on the next round. I'd wager it would add up to more damage overall in the long run.

    -Warspirit? I personally don't think he needs any changes. Nothing wrong with one or two really expensive witches. I especially like how he's one of the pieces that help bridge the gap between the witch and spirit themes. Someone else might think of something, he's just one of those runes that I'd like to run 2x, he's that cool looking, but I don't know what exactly it is keeping him at a 1x.

    - Forsaken Follower. Does she really need access to curse in a theme that pretty much curses on demand? I appreciate that she's a skeleton bridge piece like Mysian Necromancer, but her most expensive build is 86n. Now, I'm one of the people who from the start of the revamp said I was happy that we were finally starting to pay accountable prices for the champs....but even with Skele summon 3 and curse 2.....can anyone with a straight face tell me she's worth 86n? Vulnerability may not be much of a drawback, but it is a drawback, and I just can't fathom it's knocking much off her cost. Is it the synergy between Pawn and summon? Which really just amounts to an extremely situational oblivion shield every 3 rounds? I dunno. Let Gedden work his makeover magic on her, she needs it.

    - Inkblight Witch. This is the first time I've wanted to curse looking at runes that were punished for lack of a better term. And it's a trend I'm seeing with Oblivion Shield. Things with it just cost too ****ing much. Her most expensive build (Curse 2 (again?), Subsume) puts her at 91 nora. 91 ****ing nora.....I just don't get it. It must be that OP 1-2 range. I've seen other idea on her, and I'd agree with just about anything. Anything that at the very least gets rid of that flippin' ridiculous Curse upgrade path. Why in the bloody hell does a witch with a DMZ bubble around her need Curse?

    - Mysian Lamia. Yeah, just include me in the reanimated dead horse beating contest. Keep Shrinking Gaze, since that's her thing, find some way to make her cost between 70 and 85 ish. Or at least worth what she's costed at now...

    - Mysian Necromancer....I'm guessing it's just the idea of being an undead vampyre mermaid that makes these things cost so much. But Siren is fine, in my opinion, so that can't be it. Are summons and boosts just costed that high? Maybe Boost 3 and Summon 3 are much better than I'm thinking, or its just looking at what other factions can get for 85n. It looks alright until you look out of the FW bubble.

    - Necromancer. The Original. Patient zero. Poor poor girl. Yet another witch suffering from 'why do I have Curse'-itis. I'm hopping on my old soapbox for this one, Summon Festering Corpse, Splintering, keep Summon Skele 3, look at how much that would cost her with her current toolkit. (Get rid of the attack and damage stat if needed). Maybe one or two more 'necromancy'-ish abilities like soul linked, or soul siphon. Let her stay 5 speed, she's a zombie/skele bridge piece with witches, let her just be a happy little summon monkey the whole time. Heck, give her swarm: Festering Corpse. Might end up just being a sandbag, but just let her hang back making just all kind of happy little undead buddies. I'd be happy with that. Right now....just nothing there....except some redundant cursing.

    - Wretched Witch - She just really does not need that disease breath. Drop damage to 0, drop Disease Breath, move Charm 3 out onto base. Heck, leave upgrade path 2 with just the two remaining choices. Fixed, and hopefully a bit cheaper for what you're getting. ~80 nora isn't too much for what her toolkit looks like now, but there's only so much room for expensive support type units that can't attack.

    Hang in with me folks, we're almost done (I think)

    Witches non-champ support;

    Black Ops? For every witch in play, summon a shadowspawned 0dmg 2spd, 1rng, 0def, 10hp shadeling with unstable (dies in 1-6 rounds), font aversion, and detection 3 within 5 spaces of random opposing champions. (Probably way too wordy and complex, but how cool would that be?). Maybe make it every two witches, or some other 'witchy' qualifier. Need more control in our control theme.

    Chains of Corruption- Killed Hungry Dead. Make it humans only (maybe witches only?) and remove the AoE. Opposing champions within 5 spaces of a human or witch lose 8 hp and become ensnared 4. Might be OP, but whatever, spitballing here.

    Dead Zone Voodoo- really just needs a 5-10n cost reduction. Nice simple fix we could squeeze in. The effect is fine.

    Delay - Same effect, for every witch in play, refund 3 nora (max 15?). Still not necessarily worth a rune slot for the effect, maybe bump the duration of the cd up a couple rounds. Might even stick a 75n qualifier on there. Would hate to burn a rune slot up putting a moga scout on cooldown for six rounds.

    Blight the Holy - Change name to 'Desecrate the Earth' , spaces within 3 of humans/witches become desecrated ground for X turns. When this effect ends, terrain effected becomes DMZ for Y turns. Change cost accordingly.

    Drain the Earth - Killed by Despoil, though it was sickly to start with. Need to add some kind of nora generation effect inside the area (think a small scale Unholy Tomb effect). Let the area spread like despoil, but without the globe pick up. Maybe double the starting size. You get where I'm going with this. 20n isn't much budget to work with, but make it a cheaper yet still viable option for spreading DMZ around

    Elsarin Night - Small thing. The Spell text is eating up my name. The Greens are cruel gods. I finally got the name typo rectified to be eaten up by mechanics text

    Foul Rite- Was that really a buff? Or a practical joke to see if it was still garbage? Change the effect to +1dmg, +2hp, and kill all undead under 40hp. Should pop most summons and only the real undead close to dying. Any real undead caught in the ritual effect provide +2dmg, +4hp. Might need to just get rid of the dmg or hp part for summons, but one way or the other, this spell is only ever going to work as it seems to be intended if it starts applying summoned undead to the effect, or if a few witches can start swarming/spawning real undead to feed to the ritual.

    Grim Harvest- If there were some tasty discounts for having witches in the AoE when it went off....might see more play.

    Oblivion Hex- Looks good on paper? Just not enough effect for that 30n budget, especially considering you now have a huge 'don't kill this yet' sign you hang on the victim's neck. Maybe if it was five turns, so you could set up an aura kill and still nab the refund? I dunno, but I don't know anyone who uses it.

    Ritual of Ashes- how about instead of some lackluster 50% damage and some maybe extra 5 damage, it stays 50% damage on the next attack, and 100% return if the affected targets are already cursed? I'd use it.

    Setback? Maybe not witchy necessarily, but being able to 'reshuffle' our runedock could be kind of helpful, it just costs too much. 'if you have a witch in play when this spell is cast, opposing units with cursed are relocated X spaces away from friendly deployment zones' ?

    Spell Trap and Weakened - both spells that are fine on paper but could have a refund mechanic tied in for number of witches or if the target is cursed.

    Mist of the Dead - Needs to be cheaper. Maybe 'witches within X spaces have Elusive' and 'Opposing units with cursed take Y damage at the start of your turn' AND, this relic is shadowspawned.

    Flesh Sewn Helm - Maybe a discount for equipping to a witch or human?

    Stitched Hex Doll - Make it cheaper, and tie the ranks of Hex or Curse gained to which class equips the Doll.

    Ok, last few bricks in this wall of text; (I promise)

    Non-witches that we could pull into the Coven.

    Anthropomancer - Drop Wizard for Witch. Swap Divine Favor for Grace of the Dead. Drop Curse for a new ability that refunds a small portion of nora when a friendly witch dies, or just add it to that upgrade path. Observe and adjust accordingly. maybe even drop Expedite for another discount, and add rune reveals to the refund ability.

    Cleric of Unrest - Priest Witch or maybe even just Witch. No reason the Coven can't feel some of that unrestful love. Maybe give him back weaken spells on upgrade path 1 ?

    Dark Messenger - He needs to drop in price, but add Coven on base when looked at, call it good (Witch spirit bird? eh?)

    Ghost Stalker? Kind of a stretch here. Not like he doesn't see use.

    Lost Queen? Another stretch, but why not?

    Ravenwraith? Eh?

    Soul Siren could use another place to hang out when spirits kick her to the curb, but again, it'd be a stretch, but if we're trying to cram the Blood/Bane/Baleful Banshee in....

    End of Great Wall of Text. For those of you who have stuck through this meandering spitball laden list of ideas, thank you for reading. I'd TLDR, but it would just read 'laundry list of possible witch changes.'
     
    singinsammy, TeaScholar and yobanchi like this.
  2. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    This is just so I don't clog Yobanchi's patch suggestion thread. But feel free to discuss anyway, I'll be happy to respond.
     
  3. Nite2kill

    Nite2kill I need me some PIE!

    What does TLDR mean?
     
  4. KTCAOP

    KTCAOP I need me some PIE!

    Too long; didn't read.
     
  5. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    I always thought it meant 'That's a Lond Damn Response"

    But I guess that makes sense given it shows up after opening posts, too.....:cool:
     
  6. chickenpox2

    chickenpox2 I need me some PIE!

    please give back greater vampirism 100% healing power
    also what about obelus i don't see people running it much nowadays
     
  7. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    Making notes as I read your giant-ass post.

    First note: More formatting :p

    Coven
    I think Coven needs to give something to the units that do have it as well as generating the global effect. A simple "This unit takes 2 less damage from basic attacks made by cursed champions" would suffice.


    Witching Hour
    I would agree that witching hour should not grant speed. It becomes a crutch. And I really hate crutches.

    I don't agree with it granting teleport. I think there is a difference between witches and wizards and teleporting is one of those lines for me. I class the Swordmage as the exception since he was originally a wizard.
    I generally see wizards as using refined magic and witches using raw malevolant magic.


    Dark Enchantress
    I personally think possess holds her back. Her identity is a beguiling control unit. Voices in their Head is a much better option because she is basically creating a thrall, and that is much better expressed by Voices than it is by Possess. She is controlling them, not taking over their body.
    I think Charm and Fear ranks are horrific these days. They are also way too similar. Also Fear's extra AP cost AND extra cooldown AND extra nora cost is hard to justify.
    Basically she only has the abilities she has because there were none that expressed her actual purpose before. She is a vamp vamp (yes, vamp vamp) who manipulates and controls people through vampyre mind-magic *wiggles fingers* and hinders their progress in battle. i.e. VoicesITH, Stall, Flourish.


    Dark Seductress
    The enchantress I saw as a controller, the seductress I saw as the courtessan with a knife. She charms you, then kills you.
    She needs to be the reason for a new ability: Sneak Attack. It would work like Combo Attack.
    i.e.
    Sneak Attack: Charm (When this champion makes a successful basic attack against a champion from stealth, That champion becomes Charmed 3.)
    Sneak Attack: Punish
    Sneak Attack: Wandering

    etc
    Then have one base Sneak Attack and 2-3 on one of her upgrade paths. The other upgrade path would let you choose her stealth method. I would recommend her base sneak attack improves her damage, so she can have low damage by default that is supplemented by attacking from stealth.

    I will read more later.. the wall, it is HUGE :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  8. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    Yeah, teleport was just the first thing I grabbed onto when thinking of how I see witching hour work. I'm actually thinking now that I've had some rest since constructing that wall :)p) that confuse attacker and confuse enemy would probably fit better with the idea of buzzing around, cackling and striking at their foes. Mobility of some sort (but not Mobility directly) is what I think of for Witching Hour. Kind of like the witch equivalent of a feeding frenzy.

    And yeah, I might go through later and format it better, I really didn't expect to make a novella of everything, but I'm just too worn out at the moment. Some of the ideas I have in there I'm not even 100% sure I'm still on board with (As Witching hour above), but thanks for the feedback.
     
  9. TeaScholar

    TeaScholar Better-Known Member

    Just a friendly reminder that the upcoming patch was around 7-8 changes from the looks of it.

    It would help to place which of this wall of ideas are among you most adamant proposals. Are there any you feel are without hesitation- the most necessary ones?

    Upon reading this great wall in full, I will say these are some good ideas to be sure. Still, I would like to hear what your priorities are among them.

    I like the idea for wretched witch, but then it just makes more reasons to run a rune that's kind of difficult to get your hands on in the first place. Same thing with Lamia, but in both cases I still support making them more playable (and not horribly shoeboxed like they are now), and don't forget Korsien.

    If Dead Zone Voodoo is cheaper.... yes. That would be great.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
  10. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    I could probably go back through and tack a star rating on everything I think would be best served tackling first, but I just put the ideas out for the forum. Obviously, the entire wall wouldn't happen, but I don't want to push for changes that others wouldn't necessarily want to see happen immediately, if you all even agree with the bulk of it.

    Like the Enchantress and Seductress. I'd prioritize them higher because the champs are more easily accessible but are very underwhelming for what you pay. Lamia and WW would be awesome, but being harder to obtain, I could stomach waiting for them to be hit later.

    So if anything, that would be my priority list. The easier it is to get hold of, the higher on the list it should be. That way we can work up the accessibility food chain, as it were. Second on priority would be complexity of ideas. Having Hex Doll apply curse OR hex depending on class would take some coding, I'm sure, whereas dropping DZV's cost would be a Backspace/Enter new value in the database change. One obviously is less time consuming.

    So for sake of effort, I'd refine the priority list further to be; Accessibilty -> Complexity

    Not sure if that's a good answer for what you're asking, but I don't want to pick favorites, and not all my ideas are good, I can admit that, but I'd rather see the community pick what they think is good, add what they think is good, and maybe we could have a final vote afterwards.
     
  11. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    For the Wretched Witch I still think she needs to be able to get both Disease Aura and Revere when she is included with Mairdreth.

    I would do as suggested and lose the damage and disease breath.

    Then:
    - Mindwipe Aura to base
    - Charm 3 to base
    - Poison Cloud moved to Upgrade 2
    - Disease Aura moved to Upgrade 2
    Result:
    Base: Disease Eater, Mindwipe Aura, Charm 3
    Upgrade 1: Elsari Coven, Poison Cloud (Default), Revere: Mairdreth of the Rot
    Upgrade 2: Possess, Disease Aura 3 (Default)

    (using voil jester for base stats)
    New Cost: 75
    Lowest Possible Cost: 68 (Elsari Coven + Disease Aura 3)
    Highest Possible Cost: 79 (Poison Cloud + Possess)

    In a Mairdreth BG her loss of Poison Cloud is made up for by her bonus when Mairdreth is in play, plus the Mairdreth Discount.

    In a Witch BG she gains the instant damage of Poison Cloud (but goes over 74 nora), or can take Coven as a cheaper option.

    Or she can go with her highest possible cost to obtain the highest level of control (Poison Cloud, Possess, Charm 3 and Mindwipe Aura)

    Although IMO possess is a silly ability on such an active champion.
     
  12. BroWatchThis

    BroWatchThis Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Witch King hero champ. That is all.
     
  13. Dragos

    Dragos New Member

    What about Witching Hour granting Relocate: Ally to witches?I feel like calling witches by other witches,you know what i mean?If it's too much then make it aoe and call it a day. Or just grant some kind of flight?Maybe even Veiled flight but that has been quite the subject of discussion recently so...
     
  14. Demthedark

    Demthedark The King of Potatoes

    I have suggestions but its such a pain to analyze price costs of abilities and stats.
     
  15. Mercer Skye

    Mercer Skye I need me some PIE!

    I'm more of the mind if it has a toolkit worth paying for, I don't care what it's costed at. Most of the things I hit are either 'unrunnable' or 'close to unrunnable.'
     
  16. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Poxbase has a wonderful site with loads of information. It won't necessarily help with stat prices though.
     

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