How do I beat st?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Runegod, Oct 12, 2019.

  1. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    Just played a game against a flying 67 hp, 6 defense, damage frost shield, fascinate, champ ? I mean what was I supposed to do against that ? Every time I hurt the dragon, my opponent just dropped a crystal phoenix down, and boom it's like nothing happened.

    I'm using voil, I win quite a few games, but i've played like 8 of my last 20 games against st and just have no answers no matter the theme people are using. Is st just that much better ?

    I thought about using distract, but he had a jakei cleansing unit like 5 spaces behind the dragon, then I tried retreating, he just followed me right into my fonts, because well he had 67 hp, 6 defense, and fascinate. The closest thing hp wise I have is a rockcharger warbeast for 86 nora, with less defense, 2 less abilities, and 10 more nora.

    The more I look through st, the more I find similar units for 70-80 nora with monster stats.

    How does everyone else deal with st, besides joining and using st lol.
    aseryen likes this.
  2. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    Lonx Icelord
    ice fang
    frostfall hydra
    borderguard elite
    crystal dragon
    elemental core
    jakei extinguisher

    all the no-khan-do crap

    Am I over reacting or is st just really strong ?
  3. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    ST is the strongest faction in the game and I usually just concede a win to them unless I have a highly advantageous start.
    aseryen and Runegod like this.
  4. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Voil King Ruubgaal is great for setting up; SP has several answers for ST, Rock Trap and ThunderHeadTotem are good relics to run as well for their effects.

    It's a good point to add in an alternative win condition, if you can support it, running some kind of blitz/stealth so that you separate their units as much as possible. Because of the higher HP and kit that ST brings they can support both Setup&Stall to counter your playstyle; best you can do is know what units work with what is being deployed and do your best to counter that.

    Crystal Pheonix is a Nora hit everytime they deploy, and if you are killing it you are actually helping your opponent, think of Crystal Pheonix as one of the best mobile Relics around and if it isn't contesting a font, leave it alone. All that being said, you may have to do a little extra math for your battlegroup, find out if you can be a font down for X amount of turns; from there you can determine if you are ok contesting a font or blitzing their shrine. In a game where HP becomes the win condition, the Shrine is your only answer, some match ups may let you get by with a different playstyle but ultimately you'll have to commit to one tactic and proceed from there.

    If you can post a bg. windows 10 lets you capture the screen very easily; there may be a rune or two that can be replaced. Additionally, if you're not mulling over at least 35-40 runes, your bg is incomplete...replacing those intermittently is another tactic to keep yourself focused on counter play.
    Runegod likes this.
  5. PoxBot

    PoxBot The King of Potatoes

    It's not just you. ST and ST splits are kinda by default among the best BGs in the game because of a number of factors. The halt of the game's development kinda let it run rampant after people figured it out but it seems it died out a bit now that only a few remain. SP, FS and KF are also strong alternatives if you wanna try those. I would say FF power is something like ST > SP >= KF > FS and then everything else under it being matchup reliant. For splits, SP and ST definitely dominate the others.
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  6. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    I don't really like deploying relics against st, Frostfall heritage and what not.

    Yeah Crystal phoenix is a nora hit, but you can't exactly let an endless devotion, flying champ, with endless auras, roam the board and drop relics in all your fonts. Also is it really a nora hit, if it keeps 400 nora worth of champs in a safe spot ? Short term hit, for long term gains and what have you. As an sp player I can be down a font for a little bit and be okay, but when 2 or even 3 champs of your struggle to kill one opposing champ that is just running at you face, it's a little much.

    I play voil, as that's the only runes I really have, so maybe i'll post my bg in the sp forums and get some help.

    Thank you
  7. Runegod

    Runegod I need me some PIE!

    Just not seeing the power from fs or kf, they seem to be lacking any sort of punch, and really lack good beefy tanks, and if they have tanks, they are pricey.
  8. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Tortun would be the tankiest for both iirc, that was my first competitive theme but has since been reworked. Their playstyle hasn't changed all too much, but has since lost the competitive edge, however it seems like those are runes to try out once you have a few more themes to support what you already own.

    Regarding ST; It may be a setup that is poorly matched with your bg, there are answers but that would need to focus on your playstyle and what youre willing to forge. I'm keen on splits, even if just to run a few select runes; ultimately if you're having fun then you're simply stuck in a gamers dilemma of fail till you succeed, consider this elo hell more or less and at the end of the day you win some and you loose some.

    If there are specific Voil you would prefer to play, and ones you are ok replacing, that also helps direct some of the response. Otherwise most of what anyone can say is anecdotal. FF makes the conversation simple enough, it gets really interesting once you play Splits.
    guokamoli54 and Runegod like this.
  9. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Rock Trap is deployed stealthed so Frostfall Heritage is a non-issue regarding that spell, Thunderhead Totem is also fine to play considering that FrostFall Heritage is a counter, nora sink, which has a very specific function. Your best play when you know how a faction plays is to force their hand, don't allow for the positioning of XYZ if any of those variables hinder your end objective, which is to destroy the shrine. If your opponent plays Frostfall Heritage after you used ThunderHeadTotem or RockTrap; and they put you in a bad spot, the conversation isn't abount what runes to play but is instead how to play in response to XYZ.

    Additionally, if Crystal Pheonix is being played in conjunction with SoulTapLuminescence then it's about positioning and denying your opponent as much as possible, you are correct on the guard/buffer Crystal Phoenix creates but you have two options, deny their attacks or deny their abilities, both of which require a choice on which runes to play specifically against ST which may or may not be ideal for other match ups.

    TL;DR Echo Chamber seems to counter everything you are having concerns with, after that it depends on your bg composition and how efficient it is over your opponents playstyle and yours.
    Runegod likes this.
  10. aseryen

    aseryen I need me some PIE!

    Crowned Sauropod w/ Resistance:Frost & Bodyguard paired with Magnify Beast is a non-relic module, although that's a heavy investment over running relics, imo one spell is still not enough to be concerned with. If this was Drown, that's another conversation entirely.
    Runegod likes this.
  11. L33Ch

    L33Ch The King of Potatoes

    If u play voil consider using surge units , combined with all the bat generation methods this faction offers. Against frost amp , hard counters like Idol of Elements are useful as is Slaver's Whip. Check-out Gnomes channel and watch how the top players do it. In particular BallBaller...
  12. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    KF's power is in the fact they simply outrun you and can stack a ton of damage buffs from spells, abilities and equips. KF and FS are also really good at generating AP in high amounts in many of their themes. To give you an example - KF Trees can generate 6 AP globally and 3 AP in an AoE in a single turn through spells and abilities, meaning that - despite their low speed - they would be able to triple tap you.
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  13. PoxBot

    PoxBot The King of Potatoes

    SP and ST are strong because once you deploy champs, the bonus has already been reaped and it's an unfront, tangible advantage that is pretty much always good. KF and FS also possess strong, consistent bonuses that don't have complex interactions needed to benefit from them. They also have very good non champ runesets and KF can outscale the ST combat bonus with many BGs. FS and KF are weaker in direct confrontations out, specially early on so I wouldn't recommend playing either of those two factoins over ST or SP, but I think that in the right hands, they have a lot of potential.
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  14. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!

    What ap gen does FS have other than Horn of Order? I guess leap kinda counts? Not sure what im missing?
  15. poxrooster

    poxrooster The Pox Chameleon

    How do trees generate a 6 AP global?
  16. PoxBot

    PoxBot The King of Potatoes

    Circadians have some global on deploy AP boon IIRC. There's also Slipwater and pulls like Undertow. Personally, I have always preferred to just Firking DROWN things and picking up their globes.
    guokamoli54 likes this.
  17. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!

    Gotcha i haven't played an circadian so didint realize that and ya slipwater is nuts in the aquatic decks.
  18. Gnomes

    Gnomes Forum Royalty

    Imo voil are one of the tier 0 bgs in the game. Also if sp has 2 fonts I think generally they beat st. But if it's one font to one font it's more even.

    But at frost and beasts are definitely tierb 1 or 0 too
    guokamoli54 likes this.
  19. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    He's probably thinking 2x Lash Down, which each give 2 AP, then another 2 from Battle Hymn on an Elven Bard.
  20. guokamoli54

    guokamoli54 I need me some PIE!

    Ya i really enjoy voil the bg is super flexible

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