How to take IS back to competetive from bottom tier

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Dresnar20365988, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, you just seem to have a habit of being a bit of a bully with your's. It might be the language difference thing, I don't know, but you basically put down everyone who doesn't agree with you and that's unfortunate.

    Personally, since I've come back, I feel like a lot of what you are saying has been off the mark in terms of balance, particularly when you are jumping to conclusions on previews without nora costs, making incorrect assumptions, or drawing conclusions based on pre-revamp builds of champs. There was one particular example in the Crate where you complained about something that wasn't even on that rune anymore.

    That said, it doesn't matter who I talk to, if they have an opinion about something, most people tend to think their sense of balance is better than other people's, proving that or showing that to me in a constructive and useful way is the more difficult part.
    Iskandak likes this.
  2. Rapidice

    Rapidice I need me some PIE!

    Ok, I see what you want. One mechanic I mentioned would be great for constructs, was a Death Benefit kind of BG. The theme already has Spare Parts and Melt Down, maybe it would need some support spells, some that granted a Death Nova, an engineer that gains X nora when a real construct is destroyed, and some "reconstruct" oriented runes like stitched have.
  3. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I believe that a large part of a healthy and balanced PoxNora is to be in tune with the community's needs. You can disagree with that, but I think that is shortsighted.

    If you actually go read the forums a bit and try and identify what % of things I actually implement, you will see it's very little.

    Of course, when I don't do what YOU want, you find it "mindblowing."

    You should also note that what I am asking for in this thread is really about what people want to see in their faction. I don't understand how you go from that to the game being ruined or whatever or that somehow this means what goes in will surely be OP.
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
    Tarathil likes this.
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Thanks for the feedback.

    I tend to think of the Construct theme as enabling "Recycling" more than "Death Benefit" in flavor (tho they are obviously very similar things). I will have to think on what sort of Reconstruct thing we can do without the whole Stitched Remains everywhere thing (cause I don't think we should duplicate that).
  5. mw24

    mw24 I need me some PIE!

    tough and resilient are overcosted. the problem with fist of bastion was 2cd glitched ride down, the problem with bouncer was the manual cost adjustment, the problem with krikkinwing alpha was shimmering wings. tough wasn't the issue with these runes and I don't know why its cost was increased.
  6. Rapidice

    Rapidice I need me some PIE!

    You expressed it better than me, a module oriented to recycle champions. As you mentioned, is hard to achieve whitout being too similar to Stitched. Maybe among the lines of Ritual of Creation, an engineer that sacrificies real champions but instead of granting DMG/HP, it grants different abilities: flamestrike, grappling hook, death nova, etc. I see it as removing some part of a construct, and attaching it to another.
  7. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    A large part of the Brothers issues arises from the costing of their abilities. Brubaker Resistance costs 8 nora and gives either a 4 nora or a 5 nora in return. Deploy both and you have spent 16 nora on 9 nora worth of abilities. Similarly Brubaker Bond costs 10 nora and gives 13 nora worth of abilities but only works under a rather restrictive situation of being within 4 spaces of each other.
    Drop Resistance cost to 4
    Drop Bond to 8 and raise the AoE to 6 (4 spaces is tiny and using charge often takes one of the brothers outside the AoE).
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Sure, we could reduce costs and just make them more efficient, but to me, the problem lies more in that the entire design goal emphasized by their ability structure is "more efficient if both are out" so it sits in the kind of realm where it's either terrible, or OP. Most of the Sibling runes have been like this, and the Brothers double down on this.
  9. Iskandak

    Iskandak The King of Potatoes

    Its just that you seem so old and bitter on sokolov, while he's the one fixing everything that has been destroyed over the years.

    I'll make a thread about them, they are simply amazing! :D And I'll start with the basics on them :p
  10. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    No, not at all.
    I've always liked Sok, I think hes a great guy and works really hard.
    I think the blame is more on the shoulders of DOG heads, or better yet, Gedden, who managed to save this game from doom only to doom it again.
    And Sok, as an employee, has to follow orders, so if peeps say "do not nerf KF or we will loose players" or "leave balance aside to work on expansion now" he has to follow the instructions.
    The above is all conspiracy theory though, but I genuinely have nothing against the person Sok.
    Iskandak likes this.
  11. Iskandak

    Iskandak The King of Potatoes

    Kf is built on that faction bonus. Hateable as it is, remove it and KF needs buffs. And we're on the same side then
  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Note that none of is happening. I have pretty full control over the game in terms of balance and new content (aside from things that are already have art or were in progress when I returned).

    That said, there is time and manhours constraints, as always, both in terms of my own and that of the programmers on the team.

    But that's different than not being allowed to do something.
  13. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Ok, thats good to hear.
  14. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    There are a lot of cool mechanics in IS that have been nerfed into unplayability. Bringing back a few of those is definatly a start. As long as you are willing to agree that runes that after nerfing and are no longer played, were overnerfed we can actually get somewhere with this. I say this because there will be blow back from the nerf herders. They will tell us we have no concept of balance, that rune was only shoe box because IS players suck, yada yada yada and more dumb assery as is the norm for the IS nerfherder crowd. THEY MUST BE IGNORED!!! Let common sense prevail! A rune that is nerfed and never used is not a balanced rune! It is an over nerfed rune!

    First off IS should be a faction based on the concept that a strong defense is a strong offense. I understand that people don't like playing against this as a general rule. Well tuff titty to them I say! I hate getting drowned, galed, psychic boomeranged, quickened, vp'd, ed'd or vortexed but these things exist and don't seem to be coming out anytime soon. IF other factions get their strong mechanics then IS should have its strong mechanics as well.

    Here are a few existing IS mechanics that have been overnerfed and would make constructs more interesting to play. Also adding on a few abilities to add a bit more interest and synergy.

    Barricade - Classic IS style nerf. It was the spell barricade combined with an ST spell that made this spell OP. Instead of nerfing the ST spell that was the cause of the problem Barricade got jumped up to 45 nora. The spell hasn't seen play since even though its a pretty cool spell and really fits well with the overall IS theme. Nerf the ST spell or change its effect!!! Its never run anyway.

    Here is my fix - 45 drops to 40 nora - the effect is the same. -3 nora for each engineer in play.

    The barricade spell would synergize with Forge hammer and help you keep your engineers a bit safer. I'm going to suggest reclaim on a few constructs as well that would add a further layer of synergy with this spell.

    Barricade was always funky to play or play against. It really had some interesting uses. Lets not let this cool and unique spell stay in the shoe box any longer because of a ST spell that would never see play without the combo. It could also see some use with trolls and the KB they bring. Meta decks might find it useful as well.

    Spare parts - Why da Firk is this spell 40 nora? 25 nora spell at best.

    Melt down - Same deal as spare parts. 25 nora spell.

    Dwarven Tinkerer - Add charged barricade to the tinkerer. In the second upgrade line instead of the lowest level of mason. This works with the engineer theme. It works with forge hammer. It will also work with a few constructs with reclaim.

    Reclaim - Really cool on low speed constructs and very thematic as well. I'd add reclaim to several constructs as well as 1 engineer. Grants + 5 dmg +2 speed and +1 def for 2 ap for 6 rounds and consumption of a relic. The stone constructs eat the stone relics and get stronger. Strong and thematic. Just what they need! (may need to reduce reclaim to +4 dmg.)

    Grobble - Classic rune. Absolutely never played. Ever. Add reclaim in the second upgrade path.

    Silver clan cavalier - This poor guy has never seen play. Its terrible right now. With its KB and reclaim and the changes suggested above this thing is now cool to play. Throw out barricade, reclaim a part of it, shoot someone for 12 damage at the back of the barricade with plus 10 KB damage. For 80 ish nora the guy might actually see play. Put reclaim in upgrade path 1 instead of charge 3.

    Clock work swarm - Add reclaim. Remove complex machine.

    Earth Golem - Add reclaim in the second upgrade path. Reduce immunity physical to phys resist 3.

    Rock Guardian - Replace hidden stone with reclaim. This guy is very close to playable. Reclaim would do it.

    Below are some general suggestions to the IS spell line up.

    Macadamize - Change the spell so when it is cast all friendly champs globally get domain rock. Sok you and I had this discussion. I fought with you when you changed this spell. The old Maca wasn't an auto include before its last nerf. It did see its fair share of play 1x though. The perfect spot for a rune to be in to speak to its balance. When you changed it I told you it would never see play. You told me it was never intended to work globally. I told you that was irrelevant and that the global effect was necessary to see play. You didn't listen and nerfed the spell. It never sees play. Lets put it back where it was. It was in a perfect spot before the nerf. If you are not willing to bring back the global aspect then reduce its cost by 5. That might bring it back as well.

    Impervious - It should be 25 nora. So many ways around this spell in todays game. 30 nora for one round isn't enough. Or make it hidden and leave the cost the same.

    Unbending force - How da Firk is this spell 35 nora? 30 nora and maybe it gets a spot somewhere. Maybe a few people will run it.

    I can continue but I'd like some feedback on the suggestions. IS has what it needs its just that the nerfherders have no clue what they are talking about and things have been overnerfed. If we revert some of the nerfs that shoeboxed so many of these runes we can get the faction back to where it should be in power and diversity of runes.
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Here's another example of where I feel like there's a bit of tunnel vision. Both Snowburst AND Barricade were nerfed. And I have since un-nerfed Barricade to some extent by allowing the relics to be deployed inside font deployment zones (still can't contest): since they were made into summons they no longer need font aversion. This was done a patch or two ago.

    That said, I don't disagree that Barricade isn't really worth 45 nora tho, even if I am actually currently running it in my Wings deck with some measure of success. However, the overall cost of the Snowburst combo needs to stay more or less the same, so I have actually already shifted the nora cost away from Barricade and into Snowburst even before this post. I have it at 35 nora, and tho I love the engineer idea, I don't think it's worth the extra coding for the time being.

    Also, ironic that you tell ME Snowburst is never run, when Bursticade is my favorite deck, and I know of two other players who runs their's every so often :) Of course, it isn't normally run in normal meta builds because it is functional only in a specific build, but that's exactly the kind of diversity you claim to champion, yet are telling me to nerf without regard.
  16. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    What I'm saying is that snowburst is only played in combination with barricade. There is no other synergy with the spell that I know of. Why nerf a spell in IS that has uses in several types of bg's because of the interaction of a spell in another faction that only works with barricade?

    By removing the bursticade you increase diversity by allowing the barricade spell to be played more. That's what I'm saying.

    Also ST isn't hurting for diversity at the moment. There are several viable options for decks. Removing the OP combo out of bursticade and allowing IS players to run the spell in a more traditional sense will increase the diversity of IS decks. The current issue is with IS decks.
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This is because Bestow used to be different. I am pretty sure even 25 nora wouldn't save this spell, and it's not really going to have an impact unless the spell is reworked.

    I like this.

    As someone who runs the Ice Caster with Reclaim and Forgehammer in my Bursticade deck, I can certainly agree that Reclaim is strong in the right deck and allows you to push the issue when needed. The extra AP required along with the need to eat a relic means the setup keeps it well balanced usually.
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    You really need to start saying what you mean instead of assuming I can read your mind. Like when your Consecrate the Earth spell thing earlier.

    So you feel that Snowburst is an OP combo that is never played and that the deck the spell enables is not worth saving?

    And you are talking as tho I disagree with your costing of Barricade, I don't. My solution keeps the deck viable while making Barricade cheaper (and I've even already fixed the font deployment problem) so it achieves both goals. I just don't see how you reconcile saying you are pro-diversity in the meta and then go around advocating shoeboxing runes. Note, ST (such as Pede) would disagree with you that ST has diversity, but then, that's generally true of most Pox players - they generally think other factions have it better.
  19. Dresnar20365988

    Dresnar20365988 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    If you have a solution to the issue I'm all for it! That's why you make the big bucks. I'm advocating for my preferred faction which I feel is out of wack at the moment. If you have a way to get it all to gel together I'm there with you.

    I never liked bursticade personally. Its to much like drown for me. But its part of the game. So long as you can get people to run both options I'm all for it. I would just like to run barricade again and not feel like I'm losing the game because I cast it or included it in a BG.

    Its really a cool ability.
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I can work with these.

    Cavalier - I had already reworked this guy a bit prior to this, but I do like this direction so I'll look at him again when I have a minute

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