I felt a swelling of Dutch/European pride listening to Geert Wilder's Speech to Turkey

Seems like you have just outplayed yourself.

5D checkmate

 

https://rwdeathsquad.com/products/metal-geert-wilders-hoodie

@Geressen

 

poor thread, it just wants to die, and here you are flogging it with a shirt design amongst many marketed to racists and nationalists.

 

I am honestly a bit confused, I was under the impression that Saudi Arabiais less supportive radical Islamic terrorist groups?

 

Someday, someone is going to have to explain the supposed inherent evil behind nationalism to me.
I've already heard why so many people dislike globalism, but I never hear/read why nationalism is so disliked. With rational support that is, I've heard/read plenty of straw mans and "nationalism is code for neo-Nazis!", still waiting on an actual breakdown.
Seriously (?) though, if I have to listen to/read one more argument that compares anything to fascism or Nazis, I'm just going to assume there is no real reason and that the conspiracy theorists are right about globalism.

 

Its pretty much because nationalist leaders tend to promote fear- fear of immigrants, fear of rival countries, fear of government, and fear of minority groups. This gets them attention and popularity, at the cost of dividing people.

 

I've heard this a lot too, and still tickles me a bit.
You know similar things are said about globalists, right? The "they're designating an enemy and that makes them bad" isn't much of an argument anymore, since almost everyone (that matters) in politics does it.

So... It doesn't seem like a good explanation. I still feel like there's more to why people dislike them so much. Though, if it requires going into a long discussion of "globalism vs. nationalism, which is good and which is bad?", then no thanks.

 

I'm not really sure what the current definition of a nationalist is, except that it has to do with linking ethnicity, or at least a cultural conformity, with being part of a country. 'France for the french' sort of thing.

Is that what you mean?

 

Saudi Arabia has at least historically been supportive of Al-Qaeda (which eventually became ISIS). It's one half of the major Intra-Muslim conflict in a sense. Salafism (sp?) or whatever is one of it's tendrils.

Saudi Arabia itself still has very drastic laws to support Islamic ideologies as well, though less so I think than Iran... but that might not be saying much in the end (different sides as well, obviously).

 

Al-Qaeda is not ISIS, although they indeed share origin

They have actually been fighting each other on a few fronts in Syria and such, while they are both terrorist groups to us, they have vastly different views. The founder of ISIS previously worked for Al-Quada in Iraq but was found to be "too extreme". Al Zarqawi then went on to do his own thing and started ISIS.

In terms of ideology, arguably, ISIS relies heavily on the concept of takfirism (the doctrine of declaring anyone in opposition to them, particularly Muslims, as deviants) while Al Qaeda traditionally adhered more closely to an extremist version of Salafism. For most mainstream Muslims both groups actually exhibit the characteristics of what are known as the Kharajites.

Today, Al Qaeda is more of a loose confederation of Jihadist groups who pledge allegiance to what is left of Al Qaeda "central" in Afghanistan / Pakistan's tribal areas. Al Qaeda in the Af-Pak area is greatly diminished and, officially, remains subordinate to the Afghan Taliban in terms of alleigance. ISIS, on the other hand, considers the Taliban deviants, and they pledge allegiance solely to Abu Bakr Baghdadi, their so-called "Caliph".

 

A couple of reasons, but the main one is simple:

Nationalism is antithetical to Globalism.

For all that there are reasons people don't like Globalism, it's largely been lauded as the way forward since the founding of the League of Nations after WW1, though it didn't pick up as much steam until the UN after WW2.

That's a bit of a stretch. ISIS may be more extreme but it's still based on Salafism in the end. It is a mutation, but I wouldn't say their views are "vastly" different.



In any event, the main point is that Saudi Arabia has supported Sunni-based extremists quite often (usually in contrast to Shia extremists supported by Iran).

 

Sure, Saudia-Arabia is "the ISIS that made it" as someone once put it. They're one freak leader away from total terrorist status.

The rules and sentences there are utterly barbaric. One beheading video by ISIS is front page news, that's a tuesday in Saudi Arabia. But well, oil and diplomacy and whatever.

 

Ehhh, I would consider that to be a more extreme version of it.
Even though he's... Well, HIM, Trump actually summed up how I think of "American Nationalism": "America first." I think that's generally at least how most nationalists think of themselves, "putting their country first". All of the racism and xenophobia type stuff gets added on by other groups as far as I can tell (the "alt-right" and the "extreme left" usually).
I actually see various ideologies and causes getting "hijacked" a lot, usually the ones with more good intentions and less cohesive strategy (this includes globalism more than nationalism today, ironically).

 

IIRC, they had to specifically delay a series of executions in 2015 or something. The reason? They didn't want to make a new record for executions in a given year.

 

mostly I meant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_nationalism
nationalism without the white bit is also bad for the same reasons.
except instead if lets say, whites are superiour it would be for example; the people of france are superior an we should destroy the non-french because they are not french and therefore bad. because france is the greatest no questions asked.

I should say I do not view nationalism as he opposite of globalism, that would be anti-globalism
you can be anti-globalist and not be a nationalist.

where patriotism is having pride in your country and wanting to improve it nationalism would be having pride in your country by believing it to be the best ever ignoring any criticism or problems or worse blaming them on outside influence.

 

I wouldn't say it's the direct opposite. However nationalism inherently denies globalism. Because...

I can get why you'd think that way, you're a bit mistaken here.

Nationalism is, by definition, wanting one's nation to be wholly sovereign and not to be held accountable by other nations (save by the will of it's own nation, if and so long as it applies). It doesn't inherently mean you have some ignorant pride (or any other kind of pride for that matter) in that nation, only that you don't want foreigners to dictate how the government is run. While that can be (and in the case of "white nationalism" and others has been) tied to racism or bigotry and ignorance it isn't really a defining trait or quality.

 

@all

The thing to remember is that different people use words in different ways, and that how you are using it is not the definitive nor original use (nor is how i use it). Especially with a multifaceted term like nationalism, people will emphasise certain historical aspects of it, and ignore others - while others will do the opposite.

Regarding Trump, I would take it for granted that a country's elected leader would be working to promote that country 'first' - that doesn't make him any kind of 'ist', that's just the job. How he he does it is what the interesting thing is.

From what he's said I would guess he's promoting old fashioned merchantalism.

 

@Ohmin while you are right about nationalism that only applies to newer countries or in severe moderation. and the american people have never been able to DO moderation. and while there is a little overlap between them nationalism in Europe has traditionally resulted in bad stuff.

look up what nationalism in europe means. and then don't use nationalism as a word for anti-globalist. I have been to protests protesting globalist stuff and there were NO nationalists there.

there are entire youtube channels dedicated to making nationalist propaganda, is this what you have in mind when you use nationalist to mean anti-globalist:


and while I am sure there are anti-globalist themes in the greek nationalist golden dawn party that is not the main vibe I get:


TL;DR Hitler was bad, the nazis were bad. nationalist parties in europe ( the ones that keep getting a lot of support from the US ) are literally founded by nazis some trying to shake off **** imagery others doubling down. but using the same arguments.

 

so in review of politics;

• In the ellimination round Austria elected a green president instead of the nationalist candidate (the party of which was founded by nazis) ( to the dismay of many americans)
• Netherlands nationalist party did not get most votes and will likely be excluded from the cabinet by a coalition of economic liberal, green, social liberal, and centrist ( to the dismay of many americans)
• In the ellimination round France elected a centrist president instead of the nationalist candidate ( which was founded by uniting several right wind parties and also who'se former leader ( and father) denied the holocaust, insunuated people were paid for by jews etc) ( to the dismay of many americans)

so far it just looks like you guys in the US just REALLY like nazis in the guise of nationalism.

anyways coming up are the German ellections, I can guess which political party the majority of US (Unationalist Statians?) support.

 

the majority of US voters didn't go trump though, so maybe not oooo: