Ideas for potential buffs/nerfs to SP

Discussion in 'Shattered Peaks' started by devilsrath, Dec 16, 2014.

  1. SaintKiwi

    SaintKiwi I need me some PIE!

    I am morally opposed to a manual Nora cost increase on the lance admiral. Unequipable is fine on him. If you need a sand bag add something gross like rend, high ground, aerial supremecy, or overseer moga rank 2.
  2. SaintKiwi

    SaintKiwi I need me some PIE!

    I support nebron for council. There is a difference between a faction hopping meta player and someone who is passionately devoted to their faction. They might get branded as a zealot but oh well.
  3. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    I'd rather have the meta player, to be honest...
    badbwai, Sirius, Tweek516 and 3 others like this.
  4. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    Wouldn't a meta-hopping player be best suited for buff/nerf patch? I don't get it: No bias, No faction flaming, Understands balance from diff PoV etc...?

    Anyways, if a possible zealotry resides in the faction rep and greens approves some over the top buffs, wouldn't it guarantee SP as the next "ez-win", "op", "free win" BG.

    I personally don't want SP to be like the current KF or IS.

    On a side note, I also agree on the notion that MANUAL nora increase/decrease is a big NO. If its Mika, "summon fesh" or "secure fonts" might be problematic, but for Lance, it might just be that he costs what he is.
    Tweek516 and PurpleTop like this.
  5. Nebron

    Nebron I need me some PIE!

    How exactly did you come to that conclusion? When hash was active we consistently suggested nerfs and reworks to things that were broken but corpse usually didn't want to do it. AoC is the biggest example because we both wanted to rework him to not be such a cheese auto win rune late game but crupz wasn't having it. Hell, half the stuff that was going to come out OP was nerfed before launch because we pointed out how stupid it was. (You wouldn't have enjoyed playing vs release day moga razor w/surge moga)

    tl;dr- Just because you prefer one faction doesn't mean you can't effectively balance it. Like I've said in the past, the only rune I was ever given 100% control over was hyaenid spearman and I think he's in a good spot even after all these years.
  6. SaintKiwi

    SaintKiwi I need me some PIE!

    You created spearman to be worthy of Ballballer's greatness and for that I thank you.
  7. SaintKiwi

    SaintKiwi I need me some PIE!

    I find most of these suggestions to be useless except for rattle slag's buff. He will still be a bit bland and not have any real slag synergy though. As for nerfing voltaic slag to the ground, I do not approve. Also why is moga cannon not on here?
  8. Nebron

    Nebron I need me some PIE!

    These changes wouldn't nerf voltaic it would just turn him into a ranged nuker for a lightning bg instead of being a slag unit.
  9. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Ngl I trust Devil's opinion on these matters way more than anybody who's opposed him so far
    They aren't 'wrong' - but they aren't as right as they think they are
    We just need Tiny to start posting then Devils' opinions may be thrown in doubt xD

    But this is just from an outside perspective :)
  10. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    Which G'herns, specifically, need to have their cost reduced? I don't look at them and think, "gosh these guys are so expensive!" Most G'hern are fairly affordable with only a few being upwards of 80N and they exist in SP (see Faction bonus?). Given the interest in and popularity of G'hernless moga, I'm not sure this is necessary. If mogas need help, it makes more sense to prop up specific G'hern for the early, mid and late game rather than blanket buffs like this.

    G'hern Scarecrow
    These changes further support my concern for the change to G'hernbound. Specific adjustments like this are much preferred.

    G'hern Birthmother
    I have to agree that increasing her speed is likely to make her nerf bait. What are you trying to accomplish with this change and might there be a better way to achieve it?

    G'hern Thrower + Throw Champion
    I already don't agree with CD: 0 for Dwarven Catapult. For that reason I also don't agree with CD: 0 in this situation. Just because it used to be CD: 0 doesn't mean it should go back. Generating up to 10 AP for other champions per turn is simply too strong after the revamp. I'd much rather see CD: 1 @ 2AP than CD: 0 @ 3AP. Limiting the usability is a good thing.


    You didn't list a reason for increasing the nora gen from 15 to 20. Some context would be appreciated :)

    I don't agree with the proposed kit. The first upgrade path is depressing and his second path is lackluster. This is a previously suggested kit for him:
    The post I pulled this from contains a comprehensive list of suggested changes for Slags. I encourage you to give it a look when you have the time.

    Voltaic Slag
    What is the goal motivating these changes? Sunder is useful to Slags and well balanced by Dissipate. Dropping Dissipate and adding Lighting Blast to base is rather strong. Chain Lightning will become auto (unless in theme) while Strike is still not worth running. It's essentially a buff in Lightning/meta but a slight nerf in Slags. I'd rather see Improve Range swapped with Chain Lightning, Strike replaced by something competitive with Sunder/Improve Range and more options in the first upgrade path.


    Cyclonic Fesh + Hyaenid Breaker
    Offensively, not having Resistance: Electricity will make it easier for Cyclonic Fesh to translate small amounts of Electricity damage (Auras/Bombs) into (mediocre) 2-4 DMG pulses (may harm you more than opponent), but your desire to make him an expendable (squishy) tank(?) undermines this. Being at range allows for the controlled application of damage to Hyaenid Breaker while still attacking. He doesn't need to run up to smack things.

    Defensively, Breaker: Electricity is an amazing source of healing for Storm Acolyte (Electricity Eater to a much lesser extent), but Cyclonic Fesh will have a harder time sustaining this due to melee range and your intended expendability. Hyaenid Breaker is more survivable with Cackle (Awestruck!), 4-5 RNG and Resistance: Electricity.

    Cyclops Storm Caller
    Adding another source of Electric Overload further devalues Cyclonic Fesh with your proposed changes as Breaker: Electricity doesn't work while a Lightning Rod is down. Hyaenid Breaker will have an easier time moving out of Electric Overload's (5 RNG) area to let Breaker: Electricity (6 RNG) trigger into its area. I'd recommend choosing a different ability for the second upgrade path if you stick with the other pair of changes.

    (A few suggestions for champions in the Lightning theme worth considering)


    Feshcaller Mika
    Are you suggestion she receive a -9N manual adjustment from the 79N set of default upgrades? I am largely opposed to such a lazy change. There are better options for lowering her cost that also flesh out her boring upgrade paths. She has 40N of base abilities! Shuffle them around and mix in cheaper options.
    SaintKiwi, Tweek516 and Woffleet like this.
  11. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    Thank you!
  12. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    I said 'possible' zealotry because u were referred as one in the earlier posts. If ur not, then good. Tats y I said 'possible', I dont know whether or not ur a hardcore zealot

    If hyaenid spearman was urs, then good work tats one of the most balanced champion in SP

    If both u n devils r good at balancing champs, why dont u help him out and put in some inputs as to how to balance off some champs in SP like cheezy AoC, Cyclops Hurler, Cyco Fesh to help the current faction rep. I bet it'll do good for SP
    PurpleTop likes this.
  13. devilsrath

    devilsrath I need me some PIE!

    Regarding G'hern/moga- there's a fine line between them being very powerful, or very weak. I think individually most of them are in a good place balance wise, other than the ones with 5 speed. With my proposed change it's not that g'herns are too expensive, it's that early game, often being rushed at, you might have 1 g'hern on the board with a bunch of moga. If for example, this g'hern dies- it significantly cripples the remaining moga. My suggested changes to g'hernbound and the scarecrow are to remedy this problem.

    Regarding throw champion- I suppose with this change i'm just trying to reach some kind of nostalgia, I get your point- I guess 2 AP CD 1 would work.

    The reasoning is logical:

    Nora miner 3, as an ability, costs 18 nora, is passive- for 9 nora every turn. The ability its self takes 2 turns to pay its self off and activates every turn.

    Extraction, as an ability, currently costs 20 nora, costs 2 AP- for an upfront amount of 15, but 7.5 nora every turn due to CD 2). Changing extraction to generate 10 nora every turn matches the cost of nora miner. The ability its self takes 1 use to pay its self off, but can only be used once every other turn.

    Nora miner's downside is the cost.

    Extraction's downside is the cost (which as explained above generates less nora than nora miner) and costs 2 AP to use.

    Voltalic slag- I don't like sunder on range champions in general. The slag is 2x auto in any deck currently and with my suggested change this would still be the case.

    Breaker: electricity in my mind was supposed to be some kind of SP-style borghas bomb but all electrified. There's no cap on the damage so opting for a champ like the cyclonic fesh works, a tank/disposable unit. The idea was more for synergy and fun, being able to run the fesh in, potentially equip a lightning rod and remove something from the board with a lightning storm- with a lot of setup. (By the way all the damage that breaker electricity would do to surrounding champions would be absorbed by the champion equipping the lighting rod.

    The change to mika was merely to make her playable. I could stick 3 different vulnerabilities for the -9 nora, but I think even at 70 nora for a support champion, she wouldn't be an autoinclude.
    SPiEkY and Woffleet like this.
  14. Entrepidus

    Entrepidus I need me some PIE!

    I can't support this change if your primary motivation is you "don't like [it]." This doesn't make it any less auto, per your words, and fails to address its boring upgrade path. I don't have a problem with removing Sunder, but only if it's part of a more thorough reworking. Right now, you're admitting to change for the sake of change due to personal preferences. I'd like to see a more specific (and objective) goal with changes that reflect it.

    First, Breaker: Electricity is capped at 4 damage per trigger:

    When this champion takes Electricity damage, champions within 6 spaces takes 50% of that damage, up to a maximum of 4.

    Second, Breaker: Electricity wouldn't necessarily provide extra damage for Lightning Rod:

    All Electricity damage dealt to champions within 5 spaces without Lighting Rod is prevented, and this champion takes 80% of the prevented damage.

    By preventing the damage, Breaker: Electricity can't be triggered. It needs to be at max range (6) to trigger into the redirection zone (5). For both of these reasons, I don't see the value in moving Breaker: Electricity to Cyclonic Fesh, a (soon to be) disposable melee tank. I like what you want to achieve with the Lightning synergy, but the mechanics don't support it :*(

    If something is "unplayable," should we not be looking at its kit before turning to manual adjustments? If the point of the costing system is to provide structure for balancing, we should attempt to adhere to it wherever possible. Granted, a manual adjustment could simply be reworded as reducing the cost of Summon Fesh by 9. Point is, manual adjustments aren't attractive, at all.

    I think a combination of ability shuffling and -5N to Summon Fesh is the way to go. This provides an opportunity to flesh out her second upgrade path in the process.
  15. RedScarlet

    RedScarlet I need me some PIE!

    On Mika
    I personally think Summon Fesh can go down to 10 nora. A better way to adjust her cost rather than 3 vulnerabilities.

    Summon bat 3 - 8 Nora
    Summon Boghop Zomb 3 - 8 Nora
    Summon Beast - 12 Nora

    Considering Fesh are good but are randomized between Paras/Crested, a discount is appropriate. This would already lower Mika's cost by 10 nora.

    Possible adjustments can also be made to Secure Fonts from 10 Nora to 8 Nora considering Kaeyun and Mika (both expensive nora-wise), are the only ones who has it, and while I cant find any backups to why it should be lowered by 2 nora (no comparable skill aside of Font Defender which requires the champ to stay put and works passively with no timed constraint). It is also a way to lower her cost down. (And kaeyun's to 79-80 nora pre DOG days).

    And for Mika, rather than having Mass Heal 1.2.3, why not add something interesting like Worm Lord or Boost: Worm 2 for worm split BGs.

    On Cyco Fesh
    As for Cyco Fesh, if he is to be a semi Borghas unit (which is interesting since he's a 2x2. So it might work really well), why not give him a defined set of skills for Mobility + Tanky skillset rather than a hodgepodge of semi attack unit... Something like Tunnel: Earth 2 (fesh-related skills).

    And for Lightning Rod vs Breaker range, I also think the mechanics are pretty contradictory to one another. Can't you propose to make both work by letting Breaker have a clause "the initial electricity damage taken by this champion is not negated by Lightning Rod equipments". Or smtg like that

    While you're at it, I would also like to point out a spell: Lightning Storm. It needs some buffs to motivate FS/SP synergies.

    As of now, it loses badly to Bane Blast that is way similar to it.

    LStorm - 45 nora, 10 elec dmg + 3 dmg from Shock 2 over 2 turns, conditional: +50% dmg

    Bane Blast - 40 nora, 12 elec dmg, conditional: +100% dmg

    Pretty sure +5 nora and -50%dmg does not equal to +1AoE.

    Taking into account its:
    1) harder to paralyze multiple champions, while its
    2) way easier to just Tidal wave + LStorm, and
    3) you cannot double bane blast against a paralyzed champion, while you can do double Lstorm on water terrain to trigger the Conditional effect,

    we can even do -1 AoE, -5 Nora, to LStorm (since tidal wave is AoE2), and give it something like +75% damage when on water terrain.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  16. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    For Breaker, isn't the easy solution to redesign the ability to be like catalyst frost?
    If you're looking at thrower, will you take a look at his 2nd upgrade tree. Currently, it's Surge: Beast 1, Surge: Moga 1, and Planarbound. Planarbound is pretty misleading. What's actually going on is that he's been given earthbound to prevent relocating him with transporter and then been given an 8 nora manual increase to get to the planarbound price point. Surge: Beast is odd because there really isn't a thematic reason for it and because pure SP beast decks aren't really run. At least one of those slots could be used to increase his base damage so that nora people paid for the 4-6 range doesn't completely go to waste in a non-moga deck. Another alternative would be to give him some type of dot/debuff (rend, ensnare, crushing blow), which would allow him to benefit from the 4-6 range even if his base damage was low. Since these upgrades would be in the same tree as surge: moga, they wouldn't increase his strength in a moga deck.
    SaintKiwi and PurpleTop like this.
  17. PurpleTop

    PurpleTop I need me some PIE!

    I support this. Thrower is just so.... awkward the way he is
    SPiEkY likes this.
  18. MovnTarget

    MovnTarget Forum Royalty

    Hey. ='(
    Vote Kanye 2020, SaintKiwi and SPiEkY like this.
  19. Sammich

    Sammich Member

    I think we should have a whole other threadparty to address anything with Overseer. The G'hern need to be more fun to upgrade.

    And then we could talk about the Scarecrow for reals. 'Cause, I mean, while I understand making it mobile would work wonders for its usefulness, it don't make a lick of sense. I would think a reverse version of the Vicious Harpoon, where you can pick it up and tote it about (maybe at a lower Overseer?), would make more sense, and be more fun. The visual in my head is, anyway.
  20. Sammich

    Sammich Member

    Also, this thread is weeks old. Is it even relevant any more?

Share This Page