Initial Barbarian reaction

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Tarth, Jun 27, 2014.

  1. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Disclaimer: Been gone for a while, things have changed so take these as just brainstorming suggestions. Feel free to pick them apart and call me/them stupid. Jus tplease explain how so we can actually move forward.

    1-5 rating system that reflects them vs each other not necessarily compared to the rest of the faction or the game. The best of them might be trash compared to the best of the non barbarian units in the game.

    Overall: I think there is loads of room for improvement, but the interaction has gone up a great deal with even just a few changes. I think the theme lacks elements that the rest of IS can cover well which to me is perfect but I still have the desire for better rune interaction with in the race.

    Barbarians have a lot of targeted AP gen mechanics now ( a lot compared to before) which greatly helps influence the play style differences compared to say dwarfs which generally are more group or formation based while barbarians seem to be more rapid alpha strikes. More development along this type of racial difference will only make barbarians/humans in theme bgs unique for whatever theme they are in and help any mono race bgs people want to try have a unified feel.

    That being said. Race: Human still needs to be applied to the Barbarians, and Race: Barbarian needs to become a class to avoid issues such as Isran/magnus/crusader etc being broken/clogging up space.

    • Clan Chief Abilities:

    Stone Clan: The more stoic defender based clan, able to withstand the foes of the stronghold and protect its fellow man/dwarf/thing made of rock. They should focus on keeping their fighters alive, keeping their enemies back, and in general standing in the way of the other player with solid area control/CC imo and punishing players for attacking. Being a human, barbarian they would of course be less tanky and more capable damage dealers/offensive support then if this was a different race.

    Blood Clan:
    The more aggressive, excitable, warriors who plunge recklessly into combat or inspire others to do so. They would focus more or dealing with threats directly and taking them out as fast as possible or die trying. The champions, and the clan ability by extension, should encourage them to mix it up or help them get others to mix it up.

    Storm Clan:
    The more shaman/spiritual/elemental members of the tribes. I think more ranger/shaman class styling for these units. Focusing on controlling the movement of allies/enemies, adding utility and surprise to the battle group much they way the rangers/shamans do now. Abilities that help set up kills or hinder them would work really well here. Barbarians have always had an AP control slant with heavy REBUKE/AP GEN abilities so more of that would be ideal.

    • Spells:

    Warchief Inauguration: ( 2) I don't know if you are planing to release more Warchiefs anytime soon but if you are not this spell only fully works on 4 champions with one cast. The rest require double the price/cast for the same effect. Which, like single champion equipments is a bit ridiculously restrictive for the spell.

    Suggestions: Steal the Honorary Sigil code so that this spell adds a new type of Warchief so it can be used on blood clan chiefs as well. As it stands there are a possible 5 blood clans, nearly doubling the single cast list for the spell. With the bounce mechanic of Warchief it shouldn't have too much of an issue looking for targets with this change.

    Pride of Sarnghaver (4) This one feels perfect to me. It is a very tactical spell, one that works extremely well with the rapid advance options in the race.

    • Champions:

    Barbarian Archer: (3-4) Seems fine.

    Barbarian Bolt: (4) Fine, though would benefit from a redone storm clan and additional clan chiefs.

    Barbarian Commander: (3) I think it will be a 4 once Battle Leader gets its price fixed. There is no way it is a 13 nora ability, when things like commander are 6. That price change will drop a Battlemaster 3/ Battle Leader build down which imo is the strongest potential build to better compete with guardian.

    Barbarian Druid: (4-5) What can you say? 72 nora for Max heal champ/Mass/Cleanse/Alt damage/detection seems pretty good AND Raven form can still cast its heals/cleanse.

    Barbarian Elite: (3) Power Attack and execute are redundant and don't stack.

    Suggestions: Replace Execute with Battle Leader ( post price change) for an thematic style of healing and damage buff.

    Barbarian Exemplar: (3) I personally would like to see Class: Shaman on her with Blessing of the Fallen and Roar of the Fallen replace the Tough line to really be this death shaman she seems to be ( at least to me). Tough is a 6-12 nora ability while Blessing and Roar are 6 and 1 respectively making for roughly cheaper/similar priced champion. 72-81 at the cheapest, 77-86 with Blessing.

    Barbarian Guardian: (4) I like him but to make everyone happy I would suggest Nexus Aura replacing defenisve strike line. It could be Nexus/Bodyguard/Hold the Line or something.

    Barbarian Huntress: (4) Why she lose Bola Attack? Anyway still really nice.

    Bastion the Avenger: (3) I still wish he didn't have Combo Attack: Devastate but do you all like him with it? I like Battle Harden in IS myself.

    Suggestions: Replace Combo Attack: Devastate with rampage to synergize with Incite/AP gen and his Battle Leader ability.

    Brutality Barbarian: (2-4) Incite really does help his playability but Thirst for Battle is still very wonky on him. He is not an early deploy, which is fine, but you really run into points where you can't deploy him ( unless he can be incited + ap gen to get an attack off first turn) as Berserker 1-2 leaves him at the mercy of Impatient and Manic too often for his stats. Add to it Berzerk Attack stripping his base 0 def into negatives he will die far to easily as is. Hes just not a unit you want to be engaged with something over time instead of killing it outright.

    Suggestions: Race: Demon needs to go imo. Thirst for Battle needs to be replaced. It is a VERY flavorful ability but it just doesn't work for this design so unless you want to change him more I suggest replacing it with either Roar of the Fallen or Blessing of the Fallen (or whatever you want, I am a fan of the whole Fallen Barbarian looking for redemption with a beautiful death concept). Yes, he will go between 11-6 nora cheaper putting him in the 61-66 nora range for a cheap build. So it might require forced higher stats/ranks of Berserker or an artificial higher price/new upgrade line to inflate price. Edit: Jabba made it clear that Thirst Ticks before Manic kills so that might be a reason not to/to change it more.

    Conscripted Warrior: (3) Cheap, and potentially ridiculously tanky. How do you guys like him? 5-8+ def on a unit able to Regen is fun. In a tester game I sat him in a font, fighting some guys Deep Elf and just laughed as he was hitting for all of 4 damage. Doubt it is very competitive rune though.

    Suggestions: Simple one, just change Defender 2 to Enduring Aura 2. Loss of 1 damage reduction potential but it stacks with Defender and works on more sources. He is more likely to find room in a phalanx style bg so why not increase that potential?

    Elite Skirmisher: (4) Seems fine.

    Favored Nomad: (3) One of the better magic damage dealers for the race and it is the only hidden spell finder. I could see it being a 4 depending on the bg shes in.

    Ghoul Hunter: (3) Seems fine.

    Houndmaster: (4) I still really like him. Interested in seeing him after Boost changes.

    Interrogator: (4-5) I love her with Declare Target, do you? 80 nora Pummel 1/ Declare Target is how I run her how do you?

    Hawkmaster: (3) The nerf to Hawk Attack makes him a good deal weaker, but he is still an average/ok champion. Unless im mistaken there is little reason to upgrade either upgrade path and you end up with a 67 nora 7spd Detection unit who alt attacks people while he dances around.

    Suggestions: Find a better upgrade line to replace Rend 1-3. Unless others like it and I am crazy you never actively try to use its basic attack unless they engaged you or you can get a kill off of it. I'm a big fan of the Escape/Confuse: Attacker/Enemy line but might not be the best idea. A more Grant/Train style could be better.

    Mounted Kinsmen: (3-4) Seems fine.

    Pitfighter: (4) Seems fine.

    Plains Savage: (2) Still a 97 nora wimp. Incite really doe help, so I might be biased in still giving him a 2, but the guy requires it to not be a low hp, 2x2 Easy Target champion who after having Charge 3 AND Heavy Charger hits for -15 damage. Barbarian Rider is a 60 nora ability ( Team is only 30) that despite the new Renegade being awesome is just so so over priced or bad its holding him back.

    Suggestions: He is a burst damage champion so lets make him the barbarian king of the one hit kill. Unleash replaces Barbarian Rider or Heavy Charger goes to base with Unleash taking its spot. Adjust stats or Remove Easy Target or something as I know 39 nora is too little, he should be mid 70s to low 80.

    Renegade: (4) I really like him. How do you guys like him? I like to run it with Banditry to just nickle and dime the other guy. I am not 100% sold on which is better, Pilfer or Conqueror. Which one do you guys like more on him?

    Sarghavian Herder: (3) Why is she 5 spd?

    Savage Shieldman: (4) Still really good imo. Not the most powerful unit but he does add a lot of support for horde/phalanx type bgs. Not to mention Shroud is a very rare ability and he brings it, defender 1-3, and alt range to the table with block and flanking just increasing his value.

    Terraformer: (3-4) He is still the 72 nora bomb king imo. Lava and Snow are my 2 just for the movement control. Snow is only an issue vs ST but its better then the water one imo vs FS. Hard to not like him for what he is.

    Tundra Barbarian: (2) I am not a huge fan of the champion but he is anti equipment now which is helpful. That and hes cheap and can take a hit. Would you ever run him as is or what would be needed to run him?

    Suggestions: Class: Brute. I know hes not a fist fighter but being a Brute would open him up to that bg type and might help him see more play. Hes from the Tundra up north, maybe he needs a drink to keep warm? (Edit: What about sometype of Frost Armor ability over resist frost?)

    Veteran Barbarian: (3) This is still a solid unit. 77 for 10-16+damage and 1-4 def thanks to Melee Specialist 1-3, Sunder, Motivate, and Bastion of Courage. Seems like a good deal to me. (EDIT: This is the kind of champion where Thirst for Battle really shines/makes sense)

    Wild Chieftain: (5) Really digging the guy now. How do you all run it? I do 94 nora, Berzerker 3 and Extersion 2. 17 damage and 8 speed with on demand +2 ap for threat range wiggle room.

    Zedin: (3) I was never a fan of Intimidating on him. How do you guys feel about it/his design as is?

    Suggestions: Intimidating replaced with Call to Arms. Its a 8 nora savings ( 12 vs 4) that end sup placing Zedin in the mid 70s. You could up his rebuke ranks to 2-4 to increase his price if needed.

    I am not trying to lower the price of things, it just so happened that abilities that seemed more flavorful or better suited to the role I see them as were cheaper. Feel free to disagree and make your own suggestions or comments.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2015
  2. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    good speed units with exertion is what my bard bg is all about. Exertion with the IS font bonus and the high damage units can end the game before it starts on many levels. I use a barb/beast them right meow.
  3. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    @Senshu @Gedden

    He won't tag you, so I will. I just think this is a very nice sum up by someone who likes the theme but isn't being a zealot about it or complaining about "omg nerfs".

    He points out the good and the bad and makes suggestions where appropriate.

    If more people could analyse and point out their appreciations and concerns like this the revamp discussions would be far more constructive.

    I just think this is the sort of discussion that should be encouraged. A good amount of runes talking about synergies and individual champions.
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
    StupidJerk and Sirius like this.
  4. dueljewel

    dueljewel Member

    Didnt see fist in their but hey i was speed reading. I think hes still nasty with tales ino.
  5. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Good write up, took some time and thought out some ideas. I think a big issue I have is that the "Marquee" barbarians have very little synergy or glue to hold barbarians together. I think great opportunities to make Zedin, Wild chieftain, Guardian, Bastion, Exemplar etc hold the theme together were missed. They could use some sprinkling of protective or bulwark ...not these specifically but just lil nuances that work together.

    - Tarth mentioned grounding mechanics etc as well. Along those lines, Blood chieftain gives rend, maybe give some barbarians an effect when striking an "eviscerated" foe. Would go a long way, because currently people are just slapping efficient barbs into decks and if one happens to be a chieftain...then ok ?

    - We need some more interaction with warchiefs and/or champ based synergy coupled with spell/relic/equipment support in future expansions as well as rework of current spell "Pride of Sarng."

    - The hopping of Warchief buff tag is cute but the presence of Warchiefs themselves needs to have some interaction with other barbarians and/or vice versa.
    Sirius, Woffleet and super71 like this.
  6. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Don't have him so didn't get to play with him so can't rank him outside of just looking which didn't feel right.
  7. GameJack

    GameJack The King of Potatoes

    Yeah they seriously need to get back Race: Human.

    Should put Barbarbian as a class instead.

    Champions like Ironfist inquisitor n vertern knight don't have barbarian feel favourwise

    Wild Elf wondering how he is related to those plains savages

    Centuar Savage not too keen to share his family history...
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2014
  8. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Thank you, I know it most likely wont create a unified theme deck, more glue is needed, but it does provide flavorful directions for the race to lean in terms of design. Hopefully they can add the barbarian flavor to whatever bg they are in and have enough similar synergistic abilities to have some reason to be run together now.

    Working on a Barb shieldman bg right now which is a defensive rune but is built with offensive play in mind imo. Small things like flanking + shield throw balance out the defender/shroud. Feels much different then say dwarven defender.
  9. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    boo.png This my barb bg right now. currently it is the only thing i like to play. As far as up grades go i run every champ as cheep as i can get them with the exception of exertion ranks and rebuke ranks. I use relocation spell to set up chief or bastion. Been thinking about using shield man as well
  10. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    I just don't get why only like 4 champs have warchief on them. And they want every rune to be playable yet i still don't run favored nomad, ghoulhunter, interrogator, or tundra barbarian, or herder everything else i pretty much ran before in my barbarian bg's.
  11. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Just another observation. The wild chief is a Blood Clan warchief and the blood clan grant fearless and ranks of rend. The chief is a warcry champion, with around 17dmg if you are trying to not gimp the unit by having 6-7spd + zerker. So, in all honesty you will rarely get to use rends damage since he will be hitting for 17ish, then the people hes with since he is a warcry champ, will finish the target off unless you are spreading damage around or unable to direct all attacks to that target. So, whats the point of giving your heavy hitting warcry chief in a theme about high damage numbers a DOT?

    Its just another reason to either remove warcry, or zerker. Now a counter idea would be to replace blood clans DOT with something more useful but in general a DOT isn't bad on other champions necessarily though most will be pumping out 13-15+ per hit with the right group set up. Just food for thought since barbarians are no longer really solo fighters but more of a horde group aggro+ buff theme. Nothing on paper wrong with DOTS, its just from my experience he doesn't get a whole lot of dot ticks.

    You could also bypass all the zerker ap issues by giving blood clan unstoppable instead of fearless, basically swapping blood and stone. It would counter the zerker ap loss which would make the chief an extremely fast unit at maxed zerker rank, easily the most agro of the 3 warcry champions while also making the lower ranks more valid. You could even lock it at lower zerker ranks so he cant get 8spd to offset the loss of zerkers weakness for blood clan chiefs. It also helps to make the blood clan buff a bit more meaningful to offset the less then stellar rend as well as increasing the synergy with the zerker line on other units for playing with the bounce.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
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  12. GameJack

    GameJack The King of Potatoes

    On that note, Perhaps the Warchiefs shld hav more grp buffing abilities eg Improve dmg for Bloodclad, Enduring aura for Stone

    Flavourwise we can the Warchiefs leading the team enhancing their combat power.
  13. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Yeah rend is a global issue just got splashed everywhere not just barbarians. Happens, hopefully it will get cleaned up as Im not married to rend in general unless some interaction is added. Like a Ironfist exploit splashed on barbarians would make an interesting side module with applying Rend DoT then tapping the unit with another barb for added effect.
  14. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Ideally yes, the warchiefs should be granting bg helping abilities not internal buffs. Granted some warclans could keep the internal focus but the ability would be a lot more useful and affective if it added synergy and wasn't only a power boost.
  15. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    New Reaction. Barbarian can not be played as a primary element to your bg. THey do not have enough group or individual power to fight off the better units in the game. You can try to use them as a part of your bg, the better ones even offer some advantages as a champion or two in your bgs, but as a whole they are simplistic, limited, and poorly designed as a race. They need something to develop or build to, as right now its just sad that they are in such a poor state. I wouldnt even care if you were not suppose to run a full bg, I don't, but I do care that there is very little in terms of interaction and mutual support or rune complimenting with in the race. It has become hard to do even minor modules or effective combos as they do not have an effective core playstyle or element to draw on.
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
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  16. Xerxes96

    Xerxes96 New Member

    I am very much hoping that something is done to the barbarian theme soon. All my current runes were built around this theme which was completely severed by the revamp :/
  17. Gaedel

    Gaedel I need me some PIE!

    Which barbarians do you consider 2x, which ones 1x and which ones 0x? We have some expensive ones (90+) (Bastion the Avenger, Ironfist Inquisitor, The Displaced, Wild Chieftain), semi-expensive (80+) (Bolt, Brutality, Fist, Pitfighter) then the reasonably priced (<80).

    Barbarian Druid for heals looks to be a good price (64 with Heal Champion 3 and Heal Mass 2). He's the only healer barbarian, so 2x?
    Sarghavian Herder with Invig 2, Boost Beast 3 looks good in a Griffin/boost beast bg, but how about a Barbarian bg?
    Fist of Bastion, Pitfighter, The Displaced: Three of our newer barbarians are 80+. Are they worth adding?

    Which of the Warchiefs would you include? Which are overpriced and not really worth it?

    Edit: correction, I forgot Vengeant Knight has a charged heal. I really like him too, nice defense with a charged heal.

    Why is Ironfist Inquisitor a barbarian now but not Isran or Magnus?
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  18. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Its actually sad. All the work thats been put into the theme but all so hyper focused on the racial ...has exposed how little there is to the theme without it. I did not love the overly complicated clan system either but it at least had some depth and clearly required some effort.

    - I think the revamp was too much on the devs plate to attempt a theme gutting folded into it as well. No matter how much time was spent it will give the impression of being an afterthought. This is the feeling i have for barbarians.

    - It is at least an opportunity to build some champ based, relic, spell and equipment synergy and interactions but only because there simple isnt any now and it should be easy to increase something from a total lack of anything.

    - Im content to let the revamp get ironed out IF there is a promise to do a global theme rehab patch. Otherwise i fear another rushed feeling racial tweak that would "count" as our fix. "Hey guys we give you all this attention...moving on"... I'd rather barbs get a real hard look instead of several lil bones tossed at its direction.

    P.s. To be a broken record. I think we need core champion based synergy from marquee barbarians like Zedin, chieftain, guardian, exemplar, bastion the avenger and support champs ..Druid, herder. Then we need some spells, relics and equips to supplement the situation .
  19. Tarth

    Tarth Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Updated it with a few more suggestions.
  20. JaceDragon

    JaceDragon I need me some PIE!

    Just a thing, i belive that Dwarven Sharp Shooter should have farshoot more than Barbarian archer. For the rest it's oke i guess

    edit: ah i think that neither Ironfist inquistor and VK should be barbarian
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014

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