I think it makes sense for Fanatic and Vengeant to have race: barbarian, in addition to human, assuming they plan on giving barbarians race: human back at all. However, it would make a lot more sense for Barbarian to be a class, in which case it wouldn't be as fitting on them. Did you guys see how Exemplar's Martyrdon still relies on savage clan abilities? Does that apply exclusively to Warchief, or is it outdated?
The text is off. It no longer gives awestruck at all which was like 70% of the power of the ability. Now its a very very weak heal that may or may not be at all helpful for losing a guy. It really should either heal everyone, or buff the nearest guy + heal them, or debuff the guy who killed your guy. It is just a big let down since I have to lose a guy and may not actually get any heal at all depending on who it hits.
You are welcome. I am trying my best to play multiple types of bgs so that I dont just have one perspective about the race, or complain too much so it doesn't lose its constructive intention. Its just I am having a hard time grasping what the race brings to the whole of IS right now. Which is honestly partly to blame on the absurdly versatile design space set aside for dwarfs. They just do to much. They literally can do ANYTHING in IS. I am fine with out a " Barbarian theme" but I am not fine with Barbarians not having a style or design that gives them a place with in IS's actual themes. A Barbarian, or human in general, should be distinct from dwarfs, or constructs or trolls and add their own flavor to whatever bg they are in. A Brute barbarian should be different then a dwarf even if they are both drunken fist fighters. A Human paladin, who conceptually is filling the same role as a Dwarf paladin should do in in a uniquely Human way. Trading one strong point for another based on race is important to me. I hope that makes sense. Edit: I would also like to ask for feed back on my suggestions or concept as a whole. IF we all push ideas against each other we can really come up with something great.
So its 0530 and im just now getting off work, 2 hours early mind you, so I thought id ask some questions. What do you all think the roll of Barbarians, and to go further, Humans should be/is in IS? What would you like to see from the Human side of the faction in terms of supporting IS in game?
I always thought Barbs should primarily be low defense, medium-high offense. Part of this offensive power should come from being in a fight (enrage, thirst, whatever ... not sure how many other relevant mechanics there are right now) I also think they should have access to increased threat-ranges mechanics (charge, manic) but in general should not have access to much in the way of mobility skills. Unstoppable on key offensive units would be flavourful. In the future I also like the idea of "ignore pain" type mechanics - something like an activated round of 50% (100%?) damage reduction, but taking the missing damage and bonus damage on the following round. Basically a lot of things keying off traditional RPG barbs.
- Yeah at some point devs have step back and say... "ok whats the difference between a construct, Dwarf and a Barbarian/human?" And after that is determined take a long look at the races and see if they are in line with this vision. Then look at the themes from a consistent fixed identity. - Also I agree its time to consider Human as the main race and Barbarian being simply a class. This opens up some cross over synergy and options for Demons/dwarves/garu/wilderkins/yetis that have the class barbarian. Then you could have a standalone theme without it being terrible in little barbarian modules or vice versa. You also have a spell in FW revolving around humans and it was never a great deck IS/FW humans but it is now completely destroyed. I would also think human pally/barb decks should be a thing that idealy could be successful. It would work as 3 synergistic modules idealy pally and barb mechanics working all glued by some human overall interaction. - Barbs need to distinguish themselves from construct, troll, pally and/or dwarven gameplay. I dont think thats happening yet... Incite was OP but that shouldnt detract from the fact that it was a good idea. It should have just been tweaked not scrapped. I think removing camaraderie from the theme was a step in the right direction as well, in fact I woulda scrapped Guardian totally and made him a more aggressive streamlined support... I hate nexus aura on him btw. - I always envisioned barbarians as shock troops... similar to above. Most dangerous when in your face and aggressive. With some gap closing signature ability. Could be enemies with below 50% hps can be dashed to or like an exploit ability. Evisceratee enemies grant AP etc when attacked to barbs. Cleaves and pace, some clever AP mechanics that keep your battle going.
I honestly think that warchief could just be put on a couple more champions and it would be a lot better. Give Mounted Kinsman and Barbarian Commander Blood Clan, give Veteran Barbarian Stone Clan, and give Veilwalker Storm Clan. If the abilities are more spread out across the race, people will feel less shoehorned into a specific selection of champions.
If warchief abilities did in fact something chiefy they wold be nicer I think, for example: Warchief stone clan : aid defense Warchief blood clan : battle leader Warchief storm clan: something like that
thank you. Please, if you have the time or patience to give us your views or ideas it would be highly appreciated as we have nothing but hope for the revamp, but very little information on direction. We have been waiting for years for barbarians to not be just some set aside theme bg that only has a very selective race based champ selection and close to nothing to offer the whole of IS. We really, really ( correct me if I am wrong) want Humans ( not just Barbarians) to feel like they belong in the faction, instead of feeling like champion# 345 or could easily be a dwarf champion #78. Humans are faster but generally less stable with lower hp and a higher nora cost for def then dwarfs. Dwarfs are generally slower and pay more for higher speeds. A dwarf should almost never be over 6 speed while a human is almost never under 6. Sure exceptions are made but at a higher cost/discount then the other.Something like that i terms of your vision would be fantastic to hear. That simple change alone, along with balance tweaks for loss of per turn ap, would give humans a reason to exist in IS. Every faction more or less has 1 or more races that should sit in the 5-6 speed range too so its not like IS would be unfairly punished and slow.
How would this help the rest of IS? Would they be the fighters, or at least the all out offensive bash brothers from the mighty ducks in comparison to their dwarf brother sin arms? Would they offer offensive support instead of just beaters which have clogged the design space for the race? I'm not putting you on the spot but rather picking your brain as you are iconicly a UD player, which design wise barbarians historically have had a lot in common with. IS compared to any other faction has always been about average joe champions working together through support abilities to overcome the stronger races out there. In what way do barbarians fit in to that type of architecture? How do Humans as a whole? What would a dwarf barbarian even look like?
Holy crap! Huge update to barbarians just kicked off. It isnt everything I wanted but it is a lot of nice changes. Lets all put some time in to see how thy play out as I am really interested in seeing how some of these changes work for IS. I look forward to reviewing these changes and seeing if they work or not. I Ill update the original post with feed back or maybe create a whole new one for these new changes in the next few days. I am off to Paris July 5th so won't be able to test a whole lot. p.s. Renegade looks awesome! Edit: I will say that battle leader being +11 nora over Enrage and +9 over protective is a bit wonky. There is no way Battle Leader should be 11 nora more then BM 3 ( on Euan) and +9 over protective ( on Barb commander) Battle leader should be priced closer to BM 2 price range as BM 3 is a constant +2 damage and +1 defense in AOE 4 while battle leader has to be the final blow on a champ for +1 damage global and +4 hp global. Its not that powerful only highly flavorful.
the Martyrdom change and the barrage upgrade looks to make the Exemplar more usable. And the Bolt is able to chief it up now ^^
Granting +1 damage to the Exemplar is fairly nice, especially with the whole barrage line letting her pump out 20 damage every 4/3/2 rounds depending on upgrade. I still kinda wish it had an debuff associated with it instead but it does offer something other than a iffy heal. Still in the testing phase to see if she and the other changes actually work but I di wish she was a shaman. She seems so much more Shaman like then warrior like with or with out the Blessing of the Fallen or Roar of the fallen choice instead of the Tough 1-3 choice. Bolt does look fairly good. Semi high priced unit able to ground units passively which results in his base damgae being 10-30% higher then it actually says. He hits for 13ish at range 1-3 with a bomb option. That's fairly good imo for the 84-87 nora champion, depending on the rank of rebuke/bomb .
Brand spanking new reactions after 1 game. So all knee jerk stuff but oh so happy with a lot of it I had to post. Post how you like some of the changes or if you hate them. More feedback can only increase how awesome they get. Barbarian Elite: Not to knock the guy at all, but Power Attack AND Execute seems kinda redundant. Yes, you can use one while the other is on cooldown but really not the best choice imo. Was one suppose to replace the other? His other upgrade of Brutality, Bravery, or Barbaric Assault are perfect imo. AOE multi 2, surge enemy, or assault is a nice choice imo. Barbarian Huntress: Holy cow I love her now. Tempest Boar with attack electricity is awesome and Bola attack really helps tie her in to the Storm Clan with some much needed grounding options. She is a really nice unit imo for low-mid 70s. to me traps are kinda meh on her compared to the nora cost difference so I run the lowest option. Wild Chieftain: is also awesome. Incite even at 5ap is a huge game play difference compared to warcry. It really helps imo to make the "race" feel different. Now if only Blood Clan would grant unstoppable instead of fearless it would be perfect! Interrogator: I LOVE the 80 nora version of declare target and pummel 1. A 7spd decent damage unit able to give the first attack for almost FREE is huge for barbarians. They can literally push so much farther then before with her out. Her plus bastion, or any high damage dealer is super nice. Renegade: SOOO awesome conceptually. One of my favorite runes to use and now actually unique and helpful. He wont gen you any nora but he does help make himself way cheaper form his already super cheap base with pillage or banditry and adds utility with pilfer or conqueror. Block or Melee specy 1 are the lower tier options to me but maybe I'm wrong. 58 nora for the guy who steals/gains 2 nora per attack (great combo with brutality) and gains a buff for being in a font with conqueror is just super nice. Exchange conqueror for pilfer and you can literally steal the best equipment the other guy has out for giggles too for only 63 total nora which again gets cheaper per attack. Bolt: Seems like a nice solid unit. A bit on the higher side of things but its hard to argue that it isn't worth the price especially with the races options for call to arms to help make it cheaper. Now if only Zedin or someone would gain call to arms to make 3 total units id be in heaven. Barbarian Commander: Just needs a repricing of Battle Leader to be better competitor against the guardian and he should be golden. Barbarian Archer: Wish Impaling Strike wasn't on the Farshot line but thas me being greedy. I really dig impaling strike on the archer myself. An auto 14dmg attack that does bleeding is super nice especially when it can hit multiple units in a line. Now If Pin Down was added to replace farshot, he would be perfect with Pin down or Impaling strike for its upgrade but that is again me being selfish. So much potential there though. Barbarian Druid: Well i asked for champ cleanse and I got it but not in the way I expected. Higher base price but still a nice all around support healer.Maxed Heal Champ/Mass and Natures Blessing AND Dark raven form for 72 nora is a steal imo. Exemplar: Shaman, Class: Shaman. Its needed simply for shroud synergy. If the issue is putting her in CTE bgs, just let us know as she doesn't seem that much, if at all, stronger in those bgs then in the Human/Barbarian bg. Bastion the Avenger: Battle Harden 1-3 is a decent upgrade imo. Say so if you do not agree but +8-hp and 1 damage for 4 rounds at rank 3 seems fairly nice too me. THe only thing is the CA: Devastate still existing on the unit but with Incite back (at 5ap) it is a lot stronger imo. Going to have to see how this plays out seeing how " strong/already good" makes things harder to change. It might be cool to note that Bastion originally had Incite as an option for an upgrade. Seeing it come back could be very interesting for the race. I am still 100% for CA: Devastate being dropped for something more flavorful though you all might perfer CA: Devastate now with Incite back. Displaced ( Mounted Kinsmen): I meant to say coordination or whatever the ST tower has that grants encouraged to allies in range instead of cooperation but oh well, my bad. The good news imo is it has access to Call to Arms as as a range 1-2, multi attack beater who can throw down command: Charge or Dodge fairly well with base 2x2. I like him but wouldn't mind a change to coordination instead myself but too early to tell if needed. Tundra Barbarian: Suppose too have shatter, but I don't see it in my menu. Seems like a anti equipment tank, which if say he was a brute just might see play in a drunk bg. Hard to find space for him in say a normal bg but anti equipment does help that out a good deal. Ghoul Hunter: Class SHAMAN! Fun change, lets him be used in CTE for a cheap, efficient anti unholy beater and in barbarian based bgs he can wear a shroud if you so choose which lets you heal/cleanse/raise dead warchiefs. Just a nice little synergy change.
shameless promotion= http://forums.poxnora.com/index.php?threads/ability-issues-thread.4377/ I mention battle leader cost here. Also I like that you don't like power attack and execute at the same time, that shold be like a golden rule for poxnora changes: "Thou shalt not mix effects for basic attacks and non basic attacks on the same rune"
