Isn't it amusing that the only way to pass a healthcare bill in the US is to make it strictly worse?

I have no idea why you constantly bring up muh socialism as if anyone in this thread wants free stuff. Nobody says that. You seem to think a good healthcare system would somehow topple your country? Or people will stop working?? I don't even know waht you are trying to say. And once again, America spends a ton of money on welfare already. Wouldn't you rather the govt spent money on healthcare rather than on the army? Your army costs are infinitely higher then what any ''socialist'' country spends on healthcare. And your average citizen gets no benefit out of it. Also this is the second American from these forums which I've seen suggest that Germany is anti-EU in any form. Fact is Germany gets the most out of the EU. That's not even up for debate. They won't go ****. They already have a bigger influence over whole Europe than the Nazis ever did.

I'm pretty sure he means all the corporate elite who built up Germany before WW2, like Henry Ford. Also the official address of the **** party when they first formed was on Wall Street. See: Wall street and the rise of Hitler by Anthony Sutton.

 

dibs.

I'll take Saandro's free stuff.

 

Good I would love for us to convert all our military spending into domestic health care programs. Let me just wave my magic wand and make all this happen. Feel the Bern! Oh that's right I have no power. I am anti war. I really don't care about germany or the EU. What I do know is that Germany is the power behind EU and I think it is silly for people to suppose other wise. Back to health care. Have you considered the idea that since America is a capitalist system Doctors, Insurance companies, and hospitals need to make money to survive in that system? Doctors, Insurance companies, and hospitals lose money and drop out of the program. Health care is not a right, but I think it should be. It is sad that we don't have health care for everyone, but using the government to manipulate our failed health care system isn't working. Government regulations on healthcare just make things worse in USA. Government just makes things worse driving prices up with price controls and regulations. We are creating negative distortions in the free market by allowing government to intervene in healthcare. Here are my solutions to this problem.

1. Make all medical insurance payments tax deductible to eliminate the current tax codes(this will encourage employers to pay for employee insurance and stop cutting employees hours)
2. Allow health insurance companies to compete across state borders. (Affordable Care Act is not allowing this)

I believe in these solutions and I hope we can implement these into our health care system instead of trying to be socialists about it.

 

So... more free market will fix it? You know that it's cross state in a lot of states, but that the insurance companies choose not to, right?

Free market can't solve healthcare.

 

Part of the argument for capitalism is that existing regulations had made it much more difficult for new/small companies to compete with existing large companies. If those regulations were backed off (for small companies) than it would allow competition which could include inter-state insurance commerce (it's another market to compete in after all, and growing businesses would be more interested in that than established psuedo-boundaries.)

In other words, right now it's not "more free market" that people are asking for. Rather "an actual free market."

On the other side, there are people asking for more regulations, since clearly the current ones aren't enough to keep the large companies from gouging people (or keep those large companies from getting people that want to be gouged as part of surgery from getting gouged... or something).

Which could work, but it seems pretty clear that Congress has no interest in establishing such regulations. Almost every bill put forward and supported by establishment politicians so far has primarily held up the benefits for the large companies and many times at the expense of customers and/or potential business competition.

Which is essentially closer to economic fascism in the original sense of the term. Neither socialism nor capitalism.

Or at least that is how I've seen it.

 

This is why healthcare issue doesnt get solved in US. Everyone talks about wrong problem. Go look again at per capita healthcare costs and per capita income. Thats the problem to solve.

 

The US already spends the most per capita compared to others.

Its just that on quality and availability the US is dead last. Ironically, the US is the only one using a free market system.

 

I think Burns is trying to convey that in all other first world countries because of goverment control over the healthcare sector to guarantee the availability and affordability of care the same quality of care is attained at a much better price in other words he is trying to tell you this basically:



of course Spain is one of the weaker european economies so I am sure they are glad of the potential healthcare tourism.

 

So tangentially related, what are peoples thoughts on for profit medical establishments? Thought was had after watching this

I know certain posters are not a fan but this really was not really political at all.

Personally I always thought the idea of for profit medicine odd. Not to say companies don't need to pay employees and for research when relevant but the idea that they need to maximize shareholder profits over optimizing quality and cost of care is odd to me and doesn't quite jive with what I would hope.

Getting semi political, I feel like this more than anything drives up the cost of care in the US.

 

Oh yeah I saw that earlier but decided not to post it.
seems like it's a lack of regulation issue, but you know how it is; there is a large group of people that think goverment regulation into business is bad.
and it just so happens healthcare is not a neccesary public service but a business in the US.

 

I mean, to be fair, would you want the people that have been proposing/voting for these past bills to be entirely in control of healthcare and how much it costs?

 

if you want us to go back to discussing how your political system is a piece of Bane Shift we can do that but I thought that was a different thread?

 

Govt is bad so lets just continue with a system that doesnt work.

/tinfoilhats

 

The thread is a commentary on how the US government can't seem to improve healthcare and consistently makes things worse so... I think we're still on topic.

I don't think anyone has advocated that things should stay the way they were.

I don't have time now but I'll get into this later.

 

To me it always made sense that medical companies would be not for profit. Some of this may come from me working at a credit union which is not for profit. I figure if a financial institution is run for the benefit of its members doesn't it make sense that health would be handled similarly?

 

I think the main difference in thinking on that point is incentives to improve care or create new procedures and medication. You also can't really force it on international companies, but copyright treaties mean you can't just take their stuff and make it yourself.

Financial institutes making new inventions isn't generally common... and often enough it involves screwing people over with a scam of some sort and thus aren't that desirable.

Plus there are non-profit healthcare providers out there, not just insurance companies either. But for-profit companies continue to do relatively well (mostly). According to economics if those non-profit organizations were that much cheaper/better they'd out-do the for-profit ones.

*shrug*

Personally I've always been on the side that healthcare should cost it's base resources, though that can be hard to calculate for nurses, doctors, etc. But I don't pretend to know how to really make it work well.

There are some people that would prefer how it used to be to how it is now/going forward, to be sure, but most of them still weren't satisfied with how things were. But people see it from two different angles. "Corporations are the problem!" vs. "Government is the problem!" Rather than my take for example which is: "They are both part of the problem!"

Heck, as @ssez pointed out, most of the dialogue is focused on the wrong target in the first place. Insurance is an important and related topic to be sure, but the core of the issue is Healthcare costs.

People get distracted, caught up in party/identity politics and the like, arguing strawmen instead of debating or discussing how to get things done, including how to get politicians to not suck in terms of representing them.

 

@Ohmin There is a difference between healthcare and medical/farmaceutical industry. changing healthcare forces the other to adapt but it does not stop.

nationalised healthcare could be a way to improve the cost.
think of unionizing to improve the bargaining position of workers.

except the workers are the people
the union is the goverment for the people by the people
and the thing the bargaining is about affordable healthcare.

you just need the goverment to regulate it and not like the kidney example, use 1/3rd of a bottle throw away 3 bottles when you used 1, bill the goverment for 3 bottles. because that is madness.

your goverment is mad.


Oh... my ... god.

HE WARNED US!


HE WARNED US ALL AND YOU LET THIS HAPPEN:

 

Sure, just for us we're stuck with a corrupt "union."


... maybe I shouldn't have given up on journalism to work on fiction novels. With lines like that I'd be rolling bank with the right outlet.