K'thun the Ancient

Discussion in 'K'Thir Forest' started by ItsQtotheT, May 16, 2016.

  1. ItsQtotheT

    ItsQtotheT The King of Potatoes

    Is there a reason why this rune has a deck limit of 1
  2. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    He's a hero
  3. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    He can be deck limit 0 for all I care until the day he can walk.
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  4. ChiaoLung

    ChiaoLung I need me some PIE!

    From Hero to Zero in just 3 nerfs!
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  5. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    He certainly could use some work. I am still waiting for Gift of Iron Wood to actually be worth using.
  6. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

  7. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    @Sokolov Is there any chance K'thun could be looked at? Here's a list of things wrong with him...

    1) He spends 58 Nora on Gift of Ironwood and Biogenesis (combined) and yet the summoned Gnarlwood Grappler he makes are only barely better than a Sapling. The description of the ability Gift of Ironwood makes it sound like you get one with full HP but really you get one with 27 HP. Giving a Sapling +7 HP and a little more utility is simply not worth the +35 nora pricetag.
    2) He can't move. This has always been a part of his design so I am somewhat okay with this. The thing is Rockforger, which can be included x2 in a deck, can move and is so much better than K'thun it is laughable. Also, Rockforger pays 15 nora for Geogenesis while K'thun pays 23 for Biogenesis?
    3) He takes 15 damage to create a Gnarlwood Grappler and doesn't have a guaranteed way to heal up. Compare this to Spawnpool Guardian who only takes 5 damage to create Boghopper Pupils (which are much better than the nerfed Young Gnarlwood Grapplers, BTW). Spawnpool Guardian also very easily heals back the damage taken. The only way to guarantee that Plant Regeneration will trigger is if you take Forest Front as an upgrade and taking that gives K'thun even less to do.
    4) Part of the reason he was so dangerous was due to the interaction of Nora Shield of the summons he would create. Nora Shield was drastically nerfed and so this interaction is far less effective as the ability wears off after 2 turns now. Since K'thun can't move, a champion that will have Nora Shield on it has to start its turn near wherever K'thun is and then move into position. On most maps this means Nora Shield will wear off before the protected champion even gets into position.

    My suggestions
    1) Take Earthbound off base so that he can be moved by some means. Maxx, the UD hero, is allowed to move by other means and is much stronger. Consider putting Take Root back on base.
    2) Change Gift of Ironwood so that he creates Gnarlwood Grapplers with full HP and no upgrades. Reduce the damage taken by using the ability to 10 (maybe up the damage taken on Swamp Teachings to 10 as well?).
    3) Lower the cost of Biogenesis to 20 nora. You could consider upping the cost of Geogenesis so it matches.
    4) Change his attack type to Magical or Electricity.
    5) Change Upgrade Path 1 to something more useful for healing back the damage taken from Gift of Ironwood. Abilities like Plant Regeneration 3, Fellowship, or Heal Mass 2 could work.
    6) Change Upgrade Path 2 changed to something more befitting of a x1 deck limit Exotic champ. Abilities like Farshot 3, Augment Creation, Secure Fonts, and Boost could work.
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  8. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    Question to the community; are there any summon-creating champions in Pox that are worse than K'thun?
  9. newsbuff

    newsbuff Forum Royalty

    Idea: what if you use Willowwind to give him flight so that he actually wanders on maps like lost city?
    [edit] why the f|_|ck he have earthbound
  10. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    As originally released, people were afraid he'd be relocated into their font and take root there. The fear might have been justified at the time, but he's a shadow of what he once was. That said, simply removing it wouldn't do much to improve him since he'd have only gained the possibility of relocation for +5 nora jump.

    I'm now seriously considering using that as his "flavor text" in the tree guide... :D
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  11. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    Short version:

    #1 Not being able to move the champ is lame. He's 70 - 80 nora relic... not a champ and definitely no treefolk hero.

    #2 Gift of Ironwood is vastly overpriced for its post-nerf state. You gain little over the Saplings you replace.

    # Biogenesis gives you Saplings 1 turn sooner than Summon Sapling but costs 11 nora more.

    That's about the gist of it. If the poor guy could arrive at a state where he can be used like a champ and bring something meaningful to the theme without calling out the people with torches I'd be ecstatic. He could be Weighty or Lumbering if need be. Preparation was also suggested in the past as a way that he have combat potential while remaining Wandering (coupled with removing Earthbound and other adjustments, that could work out great). Some kind of tree synergy on upgrades would be a bonus. Nature's Connections is nice. Light as a Feather is good. Commander is even better. The summons don't have to be amazing and he sure doesn't have to generate nora... as long as he's not paying most of his cost, a hunk of his life, and all of his potential for those things.
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  12. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    If he MUST remain Wandering, here's an example of how he can do so without being such a lame duck:

    K'thun's current stats: 42 Nora

    Base Abilities
    Attack Magical (+2)
    Biogenesis (+15)
    Gift of Ironwood (+30)
    Wandering (-30) 59

    Upgrade #1: Range Option
    Preparation (+10) - Gains range and damage until he can attack
    Magic Turret (+8) - Attack at 2-7 range every few turns
    Magic Beam (+9)- More damage and AoE, but narrower threat range

    Upgrade #2: Support Option
    Shroud (+8)
    Commander (+5)
    Nature’s Connections (+4)

    Final Cost: 71 - 77

    Biogenesis adjusted to match Geogenesis
    Gift of Ironwood -5 Nora and HP loss removed.

    Can get in licks at long range, but only at intervals
    Can be relocated by Heart of the Forest and Elven Strategist
  13. Xirone

    Xirone I need me some PIE!

    There are plenty of ways to make him better. Let's hope there is some time for coding changes! I just hope someone who can make changes sees this thread. Playable K'thun in 2016!
    Last edited: May 18, 2016
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  14. kagebunshn

    kagebunshn I need me some PIE!

    I really hope Kthun becomes playable again too.
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  15. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    Taking Gift of Ironwood off and using its code for a spell of the same name could also be part of any solution. It would free up a ton of room and the effect of Gift of Ironwood would be greater when it's not limited to a small radius from a champ that can't be positioned.
  16. gamengamenut

    gamengamenut I need me some PIE!

    he's just bad...like i ran him for a while because it was a cool idea making my sappies grow up but all in all he was useless. making saplings into real trees would be good on a grove tender kind of champion, i feel if kthun is going to fit into the sage kinda role then he should be bringing either aoe buffs to plants and wizards or heavy magic artillery at the expense of lumbering and what not
  17. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    I've been thinking @Sokolov what about making him into a support version of maxxarek. Give him immobile, deploy charged 3 and Recharge. Change gift of ironwood to turn the sapling into a real grappler. Give it a CD of 10 or something like that take away his attacks give him boost and augment creation. Obviously idea needs fine tuning but yeah this would be cool
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  18. phdstax

    phdstax Active Member

    This is going to seem like a lot, but its design is purposeful. Mindless Wandering should be a simple code change.

    Rune Name: K'thun
    Faction: KF
    Race: Plant, Treefolk Class: Demi-God, Size: 2x2, Rarity: Exo, Limit: 1
    Flavor-Text: "K'thun is renown for his endless wisdom, his wandering mind, and his mindless wandering," Sipn, Elven Bard

    Nora Cost: 90-95

    Champion Stats
    DAM: 9, SPD: 5, RNG: 1-3, DEF: 2, HP: 54 (+45 nora)

    Champion Abilities
    Ancient Tree -19 nora (This champ has Earthbound, Mindless Wandering (At the beginning of every 6 turns, this champion moves 5 spaces at random for 1 turn.), and Vulernability Fire.)
    Ancient Wisdom +10 nora (This champ has Immortality, Wisdom, and Shrine Linked.)
    Attack: Physical +2 nora
    Biogenesis +23 nora
    Gift of Ironwood +20 nora (Please reduce the cost since the summon stats have been reduced.)

    Upgrade Ability Set #1
    Regeneration 2 +5 nora
    Plant Regeneration 3 +6 nora

    Upgrade Ability Set #2
    Forest Front +4 nora
    Viltalize +5 nora
    Shroud +8 nora
  19. Gaedel

    Gaedel I need me some PIE!

    I remember using K'thun in my tree deck a long time ago. It would be awesome if he does get improved as he is our hero!
  20. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    This is a pretty neat idea.

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