Making the Jump

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Goatmanji, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Goatmanji

    Goatmanji I need me some PIE!

    I'm terrible at PVP PoxNora.

    I know why. I've been playing Pox for a couple years now, since before the Owls took over. The problem is, I've always lost at PVP, so I play a few matches, and always go back to single player in frustration.

    It's not that I hate losing--I've come to terms with that, though it isn't my favorite thing ever. It's that I hate losing SO BADLY and not understanding why. Now, before you chime in with all the usual comments and suggestions (spectate, read forums, git gud, whatever), just know I've probably already done it. I read the forums daily, I've researched runes and abilities and synergies and combos and meta until my eyes bled. I've spectated so many matches I think I've seen more PvP with other players than my own games. I've had 'pro' players play me 1 on 1 to try and teach me better ways. I've tried every faction, just about every feasible theme I've come across, and know what I like to play isn't considered shoebox. I could post my BGs, but I can assure you that my runes aren't my problem, it's my playstyle. And I don't know how to change that.

    All that knowledge and time spent on Pox, and I still lose to every Joe Player that I come up against. My collection of expensive runes doesn't save me. I watch as all my synergies and plans go up in flames as the opponent easily blasts through whatever pitiful defenses I mount. After years of MtG and tabletop games, I have no problem following what's happening, and I always know exactly why I lose. I don't expect to be the best, or even achieve Limited rank. But I'd like to win a few games now n then... which is why I end up in Single Player modes again and again, reinforcing these bad habits of mine. It's an endless cycle.

    I guess what I'm saying is, the jump from PVE to PVP in this game is a massive gulf that I personally do not see myself crossing any time soon, if ever. Is it just that the AI is that terrible? Can I simply not compete against even the most rudimentary human mind? That seems bad to me, in a game focused on PvP. I'd hate to quit playing, not just because I've spent so much money on Pox but because I do love this game--there's nothing like it out there. So is the conclusion that I'm a lost cause for PvP, doomed to forever be a single-player Pox player only? And are there any plans to improve the AI to be more competitive?
  2. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Find someone to tutor you. What time zone are you in?
  3. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    What he said. I would highly recommend getting on the Discord server while online and asking people to observe you. If you ever see me online I would be happy to watch and give you pointers.
    fattyy2k likes this.
  4. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Maybe you will find a place in this games player council.

    *ba-dum-tshh* :D:D:D:D
  5. doubtofbuddha

    doubtofbuddha I need me some PIE!

    Yup. The reason I asked is because if you are on at the same time as I am, I would be more than happy to walk through a game and critique your technical play. Once we get past this we can start diving deeper.
  6. GabrielQ

    GabrielQ I need me some PIE!

    Things you could try:
    Don't play with your battlegroup, ask somebody for one and watch that person play and then try yourself.
    Watch BAD players play, or at least not top.
    Forget what you think you know, start again.
    Play some other tactical game to train, you could try emulating fire emblem on your phone so you can play on the run, playing chess also works but if you are at least a bit serious about it.
    Post your bgs, maybe you think they are fine but they may be not.
  7. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    Post your bg here. That will be a good start.
  8. Heart

    Heart I need me some PIE!

    You and me both buddy.... :(
  9. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Some of that may be habit. Playing against the AI a lot can build up mental tendencies, and human players may run counter to those tendencies. This is why many pro fighting game players recommend not playing against the computer: it can build up actively detrimental muscle and mental memory. That said, no, you aren't a lost cause at all. Pox can just be really darn difficult to learn. I was in the same boat as you for something like 6 years. There are a million different ways to approach learning something, and some of them won't work.

    My personal attitude has been that, for Pox at least, a player needs to develop an intuition for the game. The ultimate goal should be reflexive pattern recognition and the ability to feel out a scenario faster than anyone can think it through. Watching games may be the best way to do that, but some ways of watching are better. So, when spectating, ask yourself some simple questions:
    • Who do you feel is winning? Why do you feel that way?
    • Who seems to have a stronger deck? Why do you say that?
    • Whom does the current map help more? Why is that?
    • Are there any obvious counters to anything either player is doing? Like, what would really mess up someone's day? Think of as many of these as you can.
    • If something bad happens for one player -- Why was that bad? Could I have prevented it in their shoes?
    • After the game is over -- did the person I expect to win actually win? Why or why not?
    • How does or did this game compare to other similar games that I've seen?
    Maybe a five-word answer for those questions during a game will go a long way to helping you both parse individual games and build that broader understanding of how Pox works.

    No clean transition, but here's some Zen Rules of Pox that might help:
    SPiEkY and IMAGIRL like this.

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Been saying this for years.
  11. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    Play me.
    IMAGIRL and DarkJello like this.
  12. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    First rule don't play single player and then jump into ranked. Single player often creates really bad habits in playing pox such as bad positioning, poor nora management, poor font contesting habits. All in all your best bet is to find someone to tutor you or watch good players such as tinydragon, devilswrath, ballballer, mw24 and burnpyro.

    Also finding someone playing your current theme is a pretty good idea and try heading over to the faction forums for bg help/ rune lending and strategy. Hope this helps and good luck to you.
  13. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    Really, I've found that observing games and attempting to figure out why players do the moves that they do can help tremendously.

    That said, some players make the moves they make because they're bad, and it costs them the game, you should learn to recognize this as well.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
    IMAGIRL likes this.
  14. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Going to echo the prior suggestion to watch players who are either worse then you or on equal level while you are learning. It's much easier to point out one or two mistakes in a bad player than to see all the minute correct plays by a pro. What's important isn't seeing exactly what is good or bad, but understanding what works and what doesn't, and why.
    OriginalG1, IMAGIRL and SPiEkY like this.
  15. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

    This being the important part
    IMAGIRL likes this.
  16. Alakhami

    Alakhami I need me some PIE!

    I sometimes feel the need to give advice to people when I watch them playing.
  17. Flyingfinn

    Flyingfinn I need me some PIE!

    I am terrible at PVP PoxNora, and I know why.

    Why man?

    Cuz I got high, I got high, I got high
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2016
    super71, Pedeguerra and SPiEkY like this.
  18. Makorov

    Makorov I need me some PIE!

    Ahaha you d1ck xD
    That was funny :D
    Pedeguerra likes this.
  19. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Building a BG is the most important step to getting better imo.
    Makorov likes this.
  20. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    I bet I can make you win 30% of your games in a week

    source: other scrubs who tried to teach you were scrubs and I'm not

    im currently lazy af so hit me up and we can get together sometime
    Alakhami likes this.

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