Need some advise on a Dwarf deck

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by Lacricel, Sep 22, 2016.

  1. Lacricel

    Lacricel Well-Known Member

    IS-1.PNG
    I'm an old player but recently coming back in the game so I'm not sure about the meta these days.
    This is the deck i have so far (based on the 'By Beard we Conquer: A Guide to Dwarves' thread).

    I have about 1800 shards to spend and i'm not sure if i should get 2 legendaries or 4 exotics. and which ones to get.

    Also, Ankh of Valdac (combined with Desperate Heal and Divine Favor) seems like a really good combo but no one seems to use it, am I wrong in thinking so?
     
  2. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Here are the runes i'd take out

    nightwatch 1
    brubrak brothers 3
    half skeezick 4
    arch angel 5
    bastion 6
    battle rager- this one is personal preference, he's actually pretty good but I dislike careless which comes with berserker as it doesn't allow much strategy. 7
    ankh of valdac- increases enemy healing also 8
    Dwarven sharpshooters are good but I always preferred dwarven hooligan's or pontiff. 9
    earth god sigili 10
    axeman's fate 11
    master axeman 12
    battle matron 13

    I'd put in

    might of ironfist
    earthshaker
    medal of valor
    sepulcher of kings
    x2 dwarven hooligan
    x1 talgar
    x2 brewmasters
    x1 priest of valdac
    x1 nobles
    x1 drunken thug
    x1 rock collection for extra damage or x1 disarm my personal preferences

    Someone can probably help you more, this is just close to my non-brew dwarf bg.
     
  3. Anima26

    Anima26 I need me some PIE!

    I think the issue with Ankh is that it boost your opponents healing too, just a guess though. Champion count seems a bit high, i usually run 16 or 17. Brewmasters and Hooligans are great. Should post this in the IS forums though so other IS players can help you out, i dont play Dorfs myself.
     
  4. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    You can run that many champions, but you have to play differently and restrictive. You have to keep deploying and moving forward (have as few 5spd champs as possible) and then likely cram your spells into a definining mid/late game few turns. But honestly, IS has such good spells and [typically] slow champions, that there is almost no iteration where a BG is made better by limiting IS spells.

    Before I get into the runes let me make a comment on IS in general (which holds true with dwarves): They are sturdy, their abilities and stats help them sustain themselves. You don't typically build BGs with your units dying being part of your strategy. This means that support champions will, on average, provide more utility in a given IS game than in some other factions. IS has some really great support champs and dwarves are no exception to that rule. I'm glad to see that you've recognized this and have added some of the better ones.

    I'll comment on your runes in order:

    1. Angel: Its an angel, remove it. Replace with Warsaint if you're after a sturdy tank type.
    2. Bastion: Not a dwarf, remove it. He's a good deploy, but he doesnt fit.
    3. Matron: Only good thing about here is that she's really hot. Subpar as a support the, remove.
    4. Battle Rager: Not a bad champion but as with all scrappers you are very weak to countermobility/combat mechanics, and theres lots of control out there. I'd say remove.
    5. 2 Brubaker Brothers: Sadly, they just never quite work as well as you'd think they would. They need to be close to each other, killing one makes the other into pudding etc, remove.
    6. Bearmaiden: A wonderful support champ, costly, but worth it.
    7. Dwarven King: Never bad, but keep in mind that Warcry at range 2 is often counterproductive with ranged champions with a greater minimum range than 3 (can explain if need) which cuts out most of your 6 range champions.
    8. Magister: Tremendous Champion, consider increasing to 2x.
    9. Dwarven Seargeant: Incredible support. Nice pick.
    10. Sharpshooter: Steathed range is never bad, and he'll shine on rock maps (does aim destealth?) I'm looking at the synergy between PS and Aim and I like it, although he was much more powerful before the strip armor change. Still, I cannot recommend you remove this champion although there could possibly be better champions on non-rock maps to have in your deck.
    11. Half Skeez: I'd rather just have another DKing, although he's not a bad rune. 2 def and regen 2 is decent survivability and MA helps with getting off the warcry.
    12. Minister: One of ISs best runes, battledrum is that good.
    13. Warsaint: Yes, yes.
    14. Master Axeman: Oh the days when this guy was incredible vs. ranged. Now he's slightly overcosted and mostly foregetable, much better choices.
    15. IS Paladin: Not a terrible rune. I usually find him to be slow and not very contributive after he lays on hands. Usually ends up as a sacrifice of some sort. Better to be had.
    16. Nightwatch: He's good, but he also has absolutely no defenses so you need to be tricky in his use, or you'll lose him with little effort on your opponents part. Bit more skill to make great use of this rune.
    17. PoV: Incredible, 2x. Always.
    18. Talgar: He's a good include. Sturdy and sustainable.
    That leaves us with [S= support, M= melee, R= ranged, A=Alternate dmg type, H= harass/control]:
    1. Bearmaiden (S)
    2. DKing (M)
    3. Magister (R,A)
    4. Magister (R,A)
    5. Sarge (S)
    6. Skeez (M)
    7. Minister (S,A)
    8. Warsaint (M)
    9. Warsaint (M)
    10. Nightwatch (M,H)
    11. PoV (S, A)
    12. PoV (S, A)
    13. Talgar (M, A)
    14. _______
    15. _______
    16. _______
    I typically recommend 16 champions in an IS deck. I look at this deck and all thats left is satisfying your playstyle. Some good ranged champions might be Pontiff, Cardinal or Hooligan. Harass might be Treasure Hunter or Mechanized Band. Another melee that goes well with a few of your champions is Euan Ironfist or Paladin Commander.

    For spells, the most important inclusions are 2x Hammerstrike, 1 x RD, 1x Macadamize. After these staple 4 there are many good choices, but I don't think these can be argued.

    Relics: Banner and Earthshaker, I always use those two. I might add more but those two never disappoint. Do not ignore the midgame/midfont power of Sepulcher of Kings in an all dorf deck either.

    Equipment: Vial, Forge Hammer (but you need to include at least 1 guard tower), others... I've always liked Earthgod Sigil (EGS) but equipment removal is more prevalent nowadays, its reliance suffers. Also keep in mind Carouse.
     
    aseryen, JazzMan1221, Anima26 and 3 others like this.
  5. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    I cant offer any advice Bakki hasnt already given. For open deck slots Id try Treasure Hunter with Camaraderie and Dwarven Handler with Regal Presence (Drive at 5 range is really good)
     
  6. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I disagree with the first half of this, but agree with the second. If you are running a lot of champions, you should intend to use them, and that means playing defensively for a longer game; pushing is definitely what you shouldn't do.
     
  7. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    @Baskitkase Master Axeman is anything but forgettable atm. :p
     
  8. Lacricel

    Lacricel Well-Known Member

    Wow, great advice. I'll be making some changes tonight.
    One follow-up question though:
    It seems like there is too much physical damage. Shouldn't i use a more varied amount of damage types?
     
  9. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    That's why I like pontiff, elemental warstaff is also good for alternate damage and he's super cheap for decent stats and 4 different damage dealing attacks.
     
    SPiEkY likes this.
  10. IronStylus

    IronStylus I need me some PIE!

    Non-IS player here. I got owned by armorer+talgar+warstaff+kingmaker once. Check out kingmaker. Imo 1x is good, because gives access to iron will. Also deploy him vs shattered peaks, forsaken wastes and splits (blockade counters mobilization or alacrity for anti-power turns) I think it's pretty important.
    edit: He gives fearless, I thought he could counter that soul corruption possession, but I' wrong. Still, he fills some role in IS, so he's a good addition.
     
  11. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    You have enough Paladins that a Holy Blade of Valdac is worthy of consideration. Lots of physical dmg creates a good strip armor play adding a few more dmg.

    Also, blink or divine intervention can remove a champion from the playing field giving you a chance to make a game winning play(s).
     
  12. Lacricel

    Lacricel Well-Known Member

    I'll have to try and trade for a Kingmaker. That sucker is really good.
     
  13. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    I set up a trade whats your in-game name
     
  14. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Armorer is freaking amazing would reccomend.and i agree with most of what bakki said except his summary on master axeman.with a desert brew equipped its 60 hp tough 1, 4 defense 14 damage has block and an alt ranged attack
     
  15. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    If you want to increase your skill level I'd recommend trying
    This deck looks like it can stall to you? Theres no control to speak of, no mobility, no ellusiveness. It's very transparent. You'd place your champions and then with max5 range, you'd be taking potshots and be forced to drop your PoVs early. I think not. You'd need to deploy Talgar, Warsaints, Pal Commander, DK or Skeez and hope they can hold the line until you can reach the critical 3 champion warcry play. At that point you'd likely be ok and could then use your limited spells combined with your mini powerturns (warcry) to overtake your opponent. Your stuff would start dying, but you'd have the option of droping PoV(s) or start another warcry unit on its wait to the front. Globe collection would be imperative.
     
  16. IMAGIRL

    IMAGIRL Forum Royalty

    Moved to the appropriate forums.
     
  17. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    If you're holding 20 champions, yeah you want a lot of range -- I agree with your suggestion for more ranged options, especially things like Pontiff and Hooligan. That said, yes, I think IS can stall like that, and it doesn't depend upon harassment strategies or CC, it depends upon threat, which is something that a few burly champs and some defensive spells can accomplish. Mobility is the last thing anyone needs for a stall deck; Pox maps are too cramped and board position is too important for evasive champions to create any sort of delay. A deck that wants to stall out -- a prerequisite for decks that run many champions and want to scale up to higher resource values -- should depend upon space control in a stand-still, which is best generated through a stocky front line combined with ranged threats. Even range 5 options can be enough, if their potential damage output is high, as with Hooligans. Being the aggressor will only trade resources and choke up on the interactive benefits provided by a large champion count.

    In short, here's the line of reasoning: if you want to run a lot of champions (outside of FW) you should expect to play to a higher resource state than your opponent; if you are playing to a higher resource state, then you should play defensively. Totally support the inclusion of more range to that end. Alternatively, he could take your later advice on deck building and cut down the number of champions for a more versatile game plan. My point of dispute was with the assertion that [more champions -> more aggression].
     
  18. Lacricel

    Lacricel Well-Known Member

    Lacricel is my ign
     
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I guess we have somewhat different definitions of "Swiss army knife" and "Corpse Era" designs.

    For me, the definition of a "Swiss Army Knife" champion would be one that can fulfill many different roles and usually also had good stats in multiple areas:

    upload_2016-9-22_20-41-15.png

    So we are talking champs like the Obsidian Venger - keep in mind this is the post-nerf version (the original had 1-2 RNG as well). It has good SPD, deals high damage (with Multi), and tanks, and has AE DMG/utility in Desecrate Earth as well as CC in Conqueror/Punish, or you can take stuff like Death Pact and Decay to counter things.

    In the case of the Treasure Hunter, I think it largely fills one role: Support. The only caveat I have to do this is really Reclaim being quite good once it has triggered, significantly ramping the DMG of the champion, but it is also a CD5 ability (though I have been meaning to adjust this a bit, the amount of stats it gives is kind of out of line with the new stat buffing thinking). It doesn't tank, it doesn't deal massive DMG (outside of specific turns after Reclaim), etc. Yes, it has a number of individual abilities that do slightly different things... but that's every champ, especially when those abilities are all low-cost/minor abilities, I find it hard to justify calling this kind of champion "Swiss Army Knife" when the actual role it achieves is fairly singular (even if it has a number of small ways of contributing to that role).

    Also note that 1-2 is actually 4 nora in the formula (which is still really good, but it's not as bad as 2 nora suggests). Granted, there's no real reason for the champ to have 1-2 RNG actually, so maybe I'll change that.

    Many support/utility champions exhibit this with regards to access to a bunch of abilities that all do support/utility stuff - this is because the nature of the upgrade system creates a situation where they have a minimum number of abilities. You can describe a lot of these champs in a similar manner:

    Jakei Maiden: Just by itself, it buffs DEF and auto cleanses every turn. Then it's cheap because it has no DMG. Next you can get Heal Mass and then you can also pick up Dispel for more goodies.

    At the end of the day, it's a pretty standard champion to my mind with 2 base abilities (aside from an attack) and a couple of upgraded abilities, most of these abilities are low cost/low impact, so it ends up being fairly cheap. I can see the
    argument re: 1-2 RNG, and maybe it should choose between Stun and Provision: Utility on U2, but then that runs into the situation where it might be 55 nora now since it has so few base abilities, etc. and if you take Provision: Utility it's basically the same champ minus Stun and cheaper, so I am not sure if you'd find it to be much different conceptually.

    That said, I am guessing if it didn't have Provision: Utility you would have much less of an issue with him, since that's where he gets MOST of the "freaking does every vanilla utility role" though I would argue that this isn't really true since it doesn't buff, heal, cleanse, dispel, etc.... at the same time, the reason Provision: Utility is that way is because typically not all 3 of those will come into play at once. I also do see how one could argue that just having any Provision: Utility at all would make a champion "swiss army knife" if we use the availability of counters as a determinant of that - I mean, you can probably take any champion that has Provision: Utility and call it swiss army knife.

    For example, Goblin Collector is very very similar:

    At base, it is a ranged champion and steals abilities. Then it also counters relics with U1. With U2, you can pick grab Provision: Utility.
    It basically trades Stun for Thievery and RNG for the secondary utility of Cama/Reclaim Materials.

    But it's true that just having Provision: Utility does end up covering a lot of ground in the "counter" game - so if one considers anti-relic, anti-summon, anti-equipment, and anti-stealth, etc. to be different roles then yea, I could sympathize a bit with calling it swiss army knife, but I am not sure we typically apply the same standard to other ability classes - do we consider Multiattack and Hostile to be abilities that fulfill different roles? What about 7 SPD and 13 DMG? Are those different roles? At the same time, having too much of the same stuff and allowing "stacking" also elicits complaints in another directions (e.g. if a champ has high DEF/HP, Scale Armor and Tough... it wouldn't be called a "swiss army knife" but it'd be nerfed called probably for doing too much in one area).

    Anyway, I guess, in short, maybe the problem you have is with Provision: Utility doing too much in one ability? Though I do have to mention that it actually doesn't give Shatter (so no anti-equipment), it gives Shatter Summoned, Mountaineer and Detection 3.

    Do you have also have an example of a champ whose design you like and don't feel is a swiss army knife and can explain what the difference is?

    ~

    (Sorry for derail, DMR brought up an interesting topic, IMO.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
    aseryen and IronStylus like this.
  20. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    "What, exactly, is a Swiss army knife?" Not very interesting a topic, really. But clearly one you're defensive about.
     

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