Nerf bile zombie

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DiCEM0nEY, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Active Member

  2. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Restrict this guys posting limits



    Pls
     
    TeaScholar and Tweek516 like this.
  3. edmek55555

    edmek55555 Active Member

    No offense because im pretty awful, but there is absolutely no legitimate reason to get hit by a bile zombie explosion
     
  4. kalasle

    kalasle I need me some PIE!

    Would you like to lay out a well-reasoned argument that breaks down the various components and situations in which Bile Zombie becomes powerful in a way that you believe justifies a change to specifically that rune? I'd really appreciate it.
     
    Dagda likes this.
  5. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff Member

    No way, i like the bile zombie even if i dont think i have never used him.
    now that insane deployment zone that covers the entire map, now remove that. make it +1 size for 3 turns or something instead of permanent increase. like how seal: speed works or aid defense.
     
    edmek55555, super71 and jayscales1 like this.
  6. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Yes, bile zombie should be nerfed
     
    Dagda, nepyonisdead and jayscales1 like this.
  7. voodoov

    voodoov The King of Potatoes

    Is this for real? If so:
    Dont forget the necessary build up.
    If you get biled mid font, you have already done something horribly wrong :p
     
  8. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Nah things that are strong never require any build up. You don't have to do anything with worms you just spam chattering maw and get full field deployment. Cause FW has infinite nora
     
  9. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    nerf anything in fw but skeletons thread....i see how it is
     
  10. darklord48

    darklord48 I need me some PIE!

    I'm curious what worms would look like if only worms were deployable in the expanded deployment zone.
     
  11. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    not much different tbh.
     
  12. Etherielin

    Etherielin The Floof Cultist

    It'd stop bile cancer though. :p
     
  13. kalasle

    kalasle I need me some PIE!

    I think very different.
     
    Ballballer likes this.
  14. kalasle

    kalasle I need me some PIE!

    A lot of people get the sense (I think rightly) that worms are incredibly strong, and that bz has something to do with it, but I believe that most people don't have a much more complete understanding than that. So, even though I agree with the general assessment -- more than that, have argued for it for years at this point -- I have extreme skepticism bordering on disdain for the individual suggestions and observations that the community supplies. Don't try surgery when you don't know anatomy.
     
    NevrGonaGivUup likes this.
  15. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    I don't think that worms are too innately overpowered. DMZ is a huge advantage but you have to make some sacrifices that can lose the game in order to get there. My big issue with worms (and bile ties directly into this issue) is that there is a map-dependent DMZ threshold where you are no longer sacrificing anything to maintain it and DMZ expansion becomes non-interactive.

    One of the early versions of the worm racial had a clause where deploying a non-worm shrank the DMZ. I can't recall why that was taken out, but my best guess is that there weren't enough necrosis champs in the game at the time to build a full-worm deck. I think that that clause is worth revisiting: the deck has developed enough that the clause doesn't cripple them and bile zombies need some consequences other than the fact that the worm player is spending nora on the most efficient AoE in the game* rather than champs.

    *Unless blockaded
     
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    It made worms really terrible. And it wasn't that early, it was one of the middle iterations after Worms were OP for a bit. This is about the 5th iteration of the racial and I don't really think there's a good reason to change it yet again.

    (Keep in mind that iteration also had "on death decrease.")
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    As for Bile, it's been nerfed a few times and it's probably the least efficient it's been in awhile. It's mostly only a problem in combination with Worms, IMO, but perhaps an adjustment of the mechanics are in order as an high damage AOE in combination with Blinded is generally going to be an issue.
     
  18. super71

    super71 The King of Potatoes

    Worms bonus is overpowered, bile zombie is sub-par now with the damage nerf.
     
  19. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv The King of Potatoes

    That "terrible" variation was much better than current one.
    Creeps used to be fun mutants with good ST/UD/SL/SP synergy and requirement to actually kill stuff, now they are turned into a retŠ°rded bile/maw spam with free sdz from globes, no decrease from inzone deaths and noncreep deploys, but with terrible main champs and requirement to have lords around.
     
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Desert Owl Games

    That's not what people said at the time. Players complained that there was no way to actually grow the DMZ in any meaningful way (keep in mind originally this was before Worm Lord existed, which was created partly to address this issue, so "kill stuff" wasn't even a real option until the Creep Master as ability, as it was originally called back then, was made) and the mechanic was largely a non-element. The way the ability was also meant that every Worm had to have the ability (otherwise it would trigger the decrease).

    So you ended up paying X nora per champ for something that never gave you an advantage beyond 1-3 AP most of the time (i.e. worse than Initiative/Reinforcement and Skywings).

    Basically, while that iteration was in, there was very little interest in people actually playing Worms, because it really didn't provide an interesting playstyle - you just got some free AP.

    That said, I do think the argument that there are now more Worms and theme is more fleshed out there is a potential discussion to be had about what it could be, but I don't really think going back to +1/-1 is going to work because it might as well just be replaced by Reinforcement in that scenario which would be similar in many situations.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017

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