Nerf bile zombie

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by DiCEM0nEY, Feb 16, 2017.

  1. edmek55555

    edmek55555 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I was hoping I didn't have to point it out but range! Bile zombie has very little health. Just use range! Also if it is doing enough to devastate you, Youre clearly grouping your units very tight. Don't do that if you expect a bile zombie to come into play. 12 damage, a blind, and scoured on one unit isn't that debilitating.
     
  2. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!


    Using ranged isn't always an option. Spreading units doesn't really work well since bile zombies ALWAYS are up when played properly. So they can stall for a really long time. Also, bile zombies have initiative, and there are many ways to self kill units.
     
  3. edmek55555

    edmek55555 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    That's the magic of units like those, to either force the enemy into in unfavorable position or make them take more damage than they would like. That's like saying you don't like ranged units because you can't always get them engaged with your melee units. All units have strengths and weaknesses
     
  4. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    @DiCEM0nEY could you please point me to one of your constructive threads?
     
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  5. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    you and I are going to disagree with this, primarily because you wish damage spells were stronger, and bile zombies are pretty much the exact same thing as spells.
     
  6. edmek55555

    edmek55555 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    The reason I disagree is because of how easily avoidable it is. Normally you have some valid points, but as far is this thread goes, its just a "I lost to this, please nerf it" thread. Either spread your champs, or get hit hard. If it is really that big of an issue, run a champ with deafening aura. There are a lot of runes that will wreck you if you don't play to them properly. You can't say it is op just because you don't wish to play to it
     
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  7. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    *Sniff* They grow up so fast.
     
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  8. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I didn't say it's op, I said its ********. It might be op, I never had a problem with it before because it was uncommon, and I had more black blade barons.

    It's off the board damage, and probably the best are nuke in game if played right, with lowest CD. It also blinds, meaning it can value from hitting a single priority unit.

    It's definitely extremely strong, and most likely op imo.
     
  9. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

  10. SPiEkY

    SPiEkY King of Jesters

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  11. edmek55555

    edmek55555 Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I definitely respect your opinion, I know I certainly have major issues with some units others don't see as a problem. However I would be extremely saddened to see this unit nerfed in any way, considering how easy it is to completely avoid or mitigate. That being said, I can see how it can be problematic with worms, but worms racial is more the issue in that case
     
  12. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    Just saying that Bile Zombie is hilarious in a chop deck too
     
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  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I could see that, given what chop decks are and what they force your opponent to do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Only mid game onwards in Worms. Otherwise, it's really not anywhere close to "exact same thing as spells."

    Additionally, even in Worms, it's significantly more telegraphed than most AEs - you know it's coming if it's worms.

    Also, unlike spells, Bile Zombie has many more counters, particularly ones that are commonly played. Even just placing one champion in a strategic spot can often completely block a Bile Zombie drop (keeping in mind he's a 2x2) from being able to maximize its potential.

    I will grant you this though, even outside of Worms, Bile Zombie is one of those runes that is not played at all UNLESS it's going to be effective. This is the case with many spells (for example, Gale Force is a spell where this happens). Thus, on turns where you don't get Bile Zombie'd (or Galed) because of whatever reason, you don't even notice that those turns the rune was not a realistic option at all. But when the player DOES deploy it, and you aren't prepared, of course it's going to have an impact. But it's a mistake to only evaluate the situations in which the BZ was deployed, and ignore the ones where it wasn't a good idea.

    ~

    That said, I do think @LoganMkv makes a great point about the fact that this play defines the Worms theme now (at least for opponents) and I do think the change to Race: Worms did hurt their splashability (I don't think the Necrosis changes did much in that regard). If you disagree, Logan, do let me know what aspects of the old Necrosis you felt made them more splashable, because as far as I can tell, the current Necrosis should be just as splashable now (with the caveat that you don't have the on-kill SDZ growth, but you also don't lose it either by deploying non-Worms) - the current iteration, aside from loss of Mutant, should actually still run fairly well with non-Worms - and based on the decks I have seeing, that is the case.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
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  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Keep in mind it's already been tapped a couple times last year to be somewhat less efficient and less potential damage and remains playable. I also can't imagine the rune being shoeboxed even at 12 DMG (Rank 2 Bile Explosion instead of Rank 3), for example. I am not saying this is happening, but I just wanted to make the point that it's not like the rune is a borderline include and any tap will send it to the shoebox.
     
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Can you elaborate on this? Bile Zombie hasn't ever really been uncommon. It's pretty commonly played pretty much throughout its entire lifetime, and currently sees play in several FW deck types, including in Worms for quite awhile.

    Do you mean that there are now several more FW players who are playing more? Or do you think there's been a shift to using them more? If the latter, why do you think this is?
     
  17. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    Race is more a potential problem rather than urgent one - after all we had not much if any mutants postrevamp, and lots of old ones are never used now - doctor, wag, thirster, etc.
    The lord requirement however is the problem - if you don't have one drawn or it's a bad deploy at the moment, and you don't run fullcreeps - you are left without growth at all.
    In general I see healthy creeps as following: full creep - you play well and get to deploy into opponents shrine, 1/2-2/3 creeps - you play well and get to deploy into midfont. Maybe I just suck or current creeps are not my playstyle, but I don't see latter possible now.
     
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    No growth beyond the deploy, to clarify. But also no decrease from the non-drops.

    So before, when you could get growth from Necrosis alone, you also said countered my argument by saying the SDZ decreases for non-Creeps. But now you seem to be saying getting net growth was easy?
     
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    So ignoring Lords for a moment, let's say...

    You deployed 6 Creeps and 3 Non-Creeps, and killed 3 enemies, and they killed 2 Creeps and 1 non-Creep.

    Before you'd have gotten +6 from deploys, +3 from kills, -3 from deploys and -2 from deaths for a total of +4.

    Now, you'd get +6 from deploys, for a total of +6. Or let's say the 2 Creeps that died was outside the zone, that'd still be +4, same as before.

    How is it that you are getting less in these scenarios with the mixed decks? Unless you were just winning quite often and killing much more enemies? I mean, it should be MORE consistent now since you are no longer required to get kills via basics on the Creeps to continue growing. If you were getting significantly faster growth before, then you must have been up in kills quite often, I suspect - thus what's changed now is that you are rewarded less for winning?

    (Now, I can see how the previous one is more interesting, since it has some back and forth as the game goes on, while the new one is more "inevitable" but it doesn't seem like it's actually worse?)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  20. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    The difference is tempo/consistency/reactivity. You get 2 kills anywhere around the map with any creep - and those 2ap may make instant difference, even if you get -3 the next turn.
     

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