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Oh.. Yea you are right.. Thats too bad

 

i actually thought of an idea
forsaken waste
FF bonus- you gain 40% cd reduction and opponents get 20% cd increase
SF bonus- you gain 20% cd reduction
and opponents get 10% cd increase

 

*that doesn't stack on 2v2

 

@yobanchi Thank you for the clear explanation of your thoughts. I understand the change the 30 rune dock had on the bonus; I've been playing since 07. And honestly, even post-change, I have still won matches by draining opponents of their champs - it was a a big way to win with Cheap Meat. That statement has two caveats, first, that a single BG design functioning well with the bonus is not a solid defense of the bonus's present state, and second, Cheap Meat is only marginally functional in that respect now, so the case is even weaker. I do understand the interest in changing the bonus.

That said, I do not like - and would actively campaign against - the bonus changing to something as bland and ephemeral as rune reveals. Rune reveals are only relevant for a small portion of the game and are incredibly unexciting. The present bonus does have only a tangential influence on the field, but it is one that I actually appreciate and notice. Worst case scenario, either of the suggested bonuses have little influence on either the field or the game, with the extra reveals being mostly superfluous and the CD never taking effect. But best case scenario, what is the best feeling of using the present bonus? Even if the other player doesn't notice it, taking advantage of the CD reduction and playing your favorite champs again and again feels good; a few extra reveals will, in even the most ideal scenario, present the player only with the momentary gratitude that the RNG hasn't screwed them this day.

A faction bonus should not be based around preventing mechanical flaws or instability from ruining a faction. From a very macro-design view, it might fit in with FW: we are stitching up failings to make a functional whole, both in terms of our themes and mechanical through our faction bonus. But that doesn't mean that is a compelling design imperative. Providing rune reveals as a faction bonus then has our bonus - one of the defining characteristics of a faction - functioning in a purely ancillary role to stop RNG from screwing the player over. That is a clunky mechanism to avert disaster, and more than that and as stated above, it feels gross. I'd feel cheated if my entire faction was working - rather than to boost my champions with additional health or damage, or protect them from spells, or give me more resources - to only reduce my chances of being screwed by RNG at the very beginning of the game. What an underwhelming thought.

I understand the intent to change around where the CD reduction is, and have the rune reveals allow players to run fewer champs to make use of that. But that is a interpretation of a mechanical interaction that might not - certainly wouldn't - always hold true. Additional rune reveals first and foremost help and early game play style, one which requires a specific set of draws at the beginning of the game to function. To me, that sounds as likely to mechanically encourage high-octane rush or even combo BG's to emerge more in FW, rather than encourage mechanical synergy with the Boon of the Undead changes. While that could certainly be controlled by limiting the runes FW itself has, that establishes a frustrating and destructive design tension within the faction.

I am not wholly averse to changing the FW bonus. I don't have a strong urge to push for a change, but there are plenty of reasonable motivations and explanations for why there should be a change. That said, mechanical reapportionment in this particular way - rune reveals - doesn't seem to be the best way to do it. The idea of changing the cool down reduction to be a part of Boon is a good one, and I can get behind it. But rune reveals are not what should take the place of our present bonus.

 

flying is a practical but unflavorful 'fix' to domination, and can be circumvented by grounding effects which means it will continue to be a gank spell, but only in splits that have adequate access to grounding.

if you don't like cliff diving, FILL IN THE CLIFFS. else, leave FW alone.

seriously ask yourself, how many times is 40 nora for 4ap on an enemy champ going to be worth it? and doesn't flying also remove the combo with dmging terrain? bad idea and only suggested to appease the whiners. Dom is 1x if that. Does that not tell you anything?

 

But are we 100% certain sarinda is gonna be our 4th hero? I mean, I would prefer to see a champ like general Korsien to be our 4th hero, he needs some changes anyway. But thats just me, I never really liked witches in FW... Can't we do a poll for who is gonna be our 4th hero? Or was Sarinda chosen because of lore?

Alsooo, I just tried Korsien again, and I'm able to re-deploy him, when he is in his second form, which looks kinda goofy. As for a change for him, could you remove the easy target? I mean, he's on a horse that should make him faster (6spd...) and lower the cost of dark rider. In his second form, his whip (in the animation) hits 2 or 3 spaces away. Could be raised instead of the 1 range in his second form
edit: give him ride down

 

If we're picking a 4th hero, and god knows why, Korsien the horseeman > > > > > sarinda from splenda

Nobody really likes the additional reveals idea as an entire faction bonus, because it's nothing but a one-time benefit at the first turns of the game, and then is useless throughout the rest of the game, which FW focuses on.

Either way, banchi did go through the trouble to explain his case, and did it well. Nevertheless, the bonus is an important part of a faction. It's difficult enough to play a faction consistently when the champs are constantly falling down the nerfing hole.
But if the faction bonus isn't up to par, three potential things would happen by default.
- teascholar faction hops
- leaves the game
- leaves the game + sells runes


I also enjoy running 17-18 champs. That isn't champ screw, it's preference. I prefer champ options, and less spell/relic/equips. It seems contradictory to design an entire faction bonus for 'strategical' options- translating into the need to run less champs.
I am not a fan of that at all.
Run more champs.
The most optimal and efficient category for a bonus regards nora. Pure and unadulterated.
More nora = more champs. More champs in a bg = more potential to swarm the board with champs. Low CD = continued champ swarm, and if it's with the same champ repeatedly- that's a STRENGTH. a good thing. Not bad.
Less champs in a bg because of +4 reveals for a single turn = less champ options in the ENTIRE game.
No no no no no

I cannot support this.

Banchi explained his case very well, but I have my reservations.

The sad thing is, while we'll shoot ideas of a different faction bonus, I've noticed banchi has stayed on this +4 reveals thing for a while now. All well and good, since he defended his case very well.
That doesn't mean it's the best idea available, and that we'll be jumping for joy to take it up.

 

Keep in mind- Once we change that faction bonus, there's no going back.

Make sure it's the right decision.

 

How about this, lets amplify the motto of undead, raise the dead. When your unit dies, and you re-deploy it (since fw has such short cooldowns) it gains a stat (extra hp, dmg?). It will boost your chance of winning late game (which also suits fw). Its something unique but still keeps fw vulnerable early on. What do you guys think?

 

Not gonna work.

Yobachi isn't a fan of redeploying the same champ over and over again, which disturbs me. It's most FW players' favorite thing to do. Myself included.

 

while our current bonus isnt as useless as some may think i do agree that it has fallen way behind do to the changes in the game but i think our bonus shouldnt be whats suggested because one of the biggest complaints is how the bonus can be ignored and that its impact in the game is minimum at best due to having to pay for the champ again but i feel that having "pure" rune reveals would be even worse than our current bonus because of how quickly it's effect would end and that the only impact would be to our deck builds and early game with the end result being that during the mid to late parts of the game we have no faction bonus and that our non undead decks having less champions available due to the loss of reduced cooldowns, im going to make a suggestion on a new bonus i dont know if anyones suggested it before

Full Faction Bonus: when an opposing real champion with a different owner than you is destroyed reveal 1 rune from the rune dock if one rune cannot be revealed than one random rune is taken off of cool down.

Split Faction Bonus: when an opposing real champion with a different owner than you is destroyed reveal 1 rune from the rune dock if one rune cannot be revealed than one random rune is cooldown is reduced by 50% percent.

 

^ That would just be a toned down version of Transmission Relay.

And it once again, has to do with reveals.

 

while it is about helping fw decks reveal more runes it also has an effect that can be helpful in the late game while our current suggestion stops working by turn 4 the change would also work on random rune not just champions

 

I guess before any decisions are being made we should make a poll with all the ideas that we like so far.

 

I would like to get a bonus that is on par with the others and Understand that people in FW rely on the cool down bonus for flavor and cheap meat preference.
For that reason I think the most elegant change is to move the cool down reduction to Boon of The undead which is entirely more flavorful and retains the perceived uses currently present.

The issue comes down to what is an acceptable and elegant replacement bonus for the faction. I am open to ideas.


As for General Korsean can someone give me the entire stats of him in his 2nd form? He could be a better candidate for 4th hero if people prefer him over Sarinda. Just remember hearing some wanting a witch hero and she seemed like the closest one.

 

We need a tank hero, we alredy got enough wizard/range like heros.

 

If we really wanted or needed a witch hero, I vouch for moragen. Just slap 'witch' on her.
Korsien would be a great hero if reworked. If no one else posts the korsien form 2 stats after some time, I'll go out of my way to post them.

I, too, support moving the reduced CD to the boon of the undead. Most of Yobanchi's intentions I am in accordance with.

It is indeed, simply a matter of what the new bonus would be, in which case we are currently undecided. Lets make sure we boil it down to a small handful of well-thought-out choices before we make a poll for it.

 

I like sarinda as a witch hero and she seems interesting,general korsien seems like a generic efficient beater hero,like something sp had.
The reduced cd could be a special ability thats only on runes that need it(like skeleton berserker).
An idea for bonus:remove extra nora from boon of the undead and make it the faction bonus,on larger scale.Or something like forage,gain 3 ap when you pick a globe,but it could also be a stats boost or something.

Edit: Another small idea for a bonus:when a friendly real champions dies,the nearest friendly champion gains 4/2 ap.Or some other stats bonus.

 

Korsien is better than your favorite rapper. kay?

He's not even 'efficient' anymore, after the revamp, sadly.

He's about as generic as the time-warping spaceship you wish you had. He's neither efficient nor generic. Do you get my point? You have this idea that he's something he's not. We don't even want him to be a beater hero.
Tanks and Beaters are not the same. We want him to be general korsien, not abomination.

That being said...
Reduced cooldown on a special ability- yeah, it's gonna be called boon of the undead. Every undead needs it.

Gaining 3 ap, extra nora, or a stat boost upon picking up nora- - Unecessarily OP dusk creeper, anyone? I'll give that a hard pass.

 

I didnt mean he is that now,but in the future if he will be the hero.I will support whatever champion has a more interesting design.