New Vampire Dude

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by potatonuts, Aug 17, 2017.

  1. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Basically, I want to see what your reasoning is for why a 2-5 RNG attacks would be better on a 1-3 RNG champ than a 1-2 or 1 RNG champ, because usually I can at least imagine a crappy "for this reason" argument for a lot of positions, but not this time.
    Tweek516 likes this.
  2. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    So you were threatening me! No need to get all surly, I'd happily elaborate but it might take me a while to compile all my reasoning in a comprehensive fashion so watch this space.
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    I am always sarcastic and abrasive out of love -- merely love.
  4. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

  5. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    This isn't only applicable to him having 1-3 range as I've based a lot of this on positioning and keeping him out of melee so 1-2 range could work too.

    I'll guess you just got a bit overzealous here because you obviously can't get bleed effects in 'any' bg, more like two bg's and Vampyres themselves have very few viable options for this. Outside of a UD split or sacrificing some better upgrade choices that bloodied condition won't be getting triggered very often.

    I don't think this carries as much weight as you think it does.

    As a melee champion you have to position him closer to the enemy in order to have the threat of his basic attack damage. Of course you can use BS to poke or pick up kills before he has engaged in melee but I think it is safe to assume that in most of these instances you will not be triggering or needing the heal proc. Once he has engaged in melee your chances to use BS at max range suddenly get a lot slimmer, especially if your opponent counter engages and locks him down. I think at this stage it will be tricky to use BS effectively, your choices are going to be split between backing off and having him do very little for a few turns or collecting blood balls and stay at the front with BS' range probably going to waste.

    As a 1-3 ranged champion you can position him further back and still maintain the threat of his basic attack, this also makes it harder for your opponent to engage him and prevent you from using BS. While in this safer position it will be much easier to maneuver him to the targets you want to hit with BS as well as tap with his basic and apply bloodied if you have the upgrade. If he takes a bit of poke or aoe splash in this position I can see making great use of BS by backing him off to a safer distance and hitting a now bloodied or low hp target for the heal. After backing him off he can stay in a safe area of the map for the next turn, save some AP and possibly provide a bit of threat with his ranged basic. I also think this allows you more freedom of choice with which targets to use it on so that you will be getting full value from the LoL effect and heal proc instead of just using it as a 2-5 ranged tap when he has nothing better to do.

    Any BS range 'lost' by attacking from 3 range will be more than compensated for by AP and range saved by not having to move into melee to attack.

    I almost wrote out a whole list of specific instances where being melee would prevent you getting value from BS but I think these two short examples show that with a ranged attack you can get more value from it and that it can be hard to get good value from it after he is engaged in melee.

    I'd like to add that all this defensive positioning would make it much easier to keep him alive and have that Commander buff out for as long as possible, it also means that you'd have more chance of getting a good Blood Bind off which brings me back to my original point. I dont think there is any real reason for him having 7 spd and 1 rng instead of 6spd and 1-3 rng, it makes him less able to fill a more support based role and fully exploit his awesome upgrades, it also robs the Vampyre theme of a non melee option and I really hope i've made a good argument for that by now.

    tldr; If you move him into melee he wont be at range any more :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  6. Streea

    Streea The King of Potatoes

    Potatonuts.. Bloodbinder Count is a sandbag now. Take it from someone who still only plays Vampyres. With the loss of his own way of proccing Blood Bind, via the removal of his DMZ was the death of his own unique ability. Giving him blood spear and saying he's awesome due to it is beyond a joke. Nerfing is 1-3 range to 1 is fine. As with all vampyres, he's just a beat stick which now, if you want Blood Bind, you're paying more than 100 nora just for a simple CC that IS gets with one spell at far less that cost.

    As for the Elder Vampyre, decent champion. Escalation+Bone Staff keeps him going for a while. Outside of being fun to use vs AI, he's a prime target in PVP. Two hits and down to 25-30 HP, he becomes a nora sink that should of been in a Vengeful deck.

    A lot of these new changes to champions, and runes in general for the sake of 'balance' is kinda meh. All the runes were fine prior to the midterm patch, each had their place and each worked well. FW spirit decks now for example have nothing to sync with since most of them lost 'surge spirit'. Thus to make such a deck work, you require vengeful champions and to run cheap meat champions. Effectively that causes it to no longer be thematic, and instead its a concept revolving around vengeful. I miss the days when we the players had full customization of the champions at our finger tips. For the sake of balance? That was balance. So what if someone wanted to run a champion with 18 damage, and 8 speed, with cleave and physical resistance? If he's willing to try to get the 120 nora to do it, good job for him. The balance issues currently are that most older runes have not been altered enough to suit and been pushed to the shoebox, rather than being updated individually to suit the current era. No one wants to run a melee champion these days if it doesn't do something other than beat the crap out of another champion. The developers need to take that into consideration, and fix some of the themes across the board itself, rather than giving us new play things and making tweaks and saying "You're welcome."
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    potatonuts likes this.
  7. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    This is like 90% of my problem with the change right here, Vamps already have so many melee beaters. Sucks to lose one of the better non melee champs.

    Completely agree with what you are saying about spirits too, I'd been very hesitant to touch my Arroyo bg after that volley of nerfs they took but the surge gutting just finished them. At some point the themes were looking really strong, lot's of stuff was viable and the meta became really varied but then these unnecessary reworks and nerfs just started coming out of the wood work and the game feels like a mess for it.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  8. super71

    super71 I need me some PIE!

    Bloodbinder count was better with 1-3 range and vengeance or escalation and his old DMz ability.

    I'm more irritated the new vamp is another melee beater in a theme full of them

    Also why do we need to explain why 1-3 range is better than 1 or 1-2, 1-3 range is arguably the best range in the game when it comes to short range, or contesting fonts while keeping your champ safe. Seems rather self explanatory why bloodbinder isn't as good, everything that made him good was essentially removed.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  9. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    I was referring to the 50% HP clause, which can be triggered in literally any bg.

    I'm very confused by what you said here, and don't really follow your argument. It seems as though you're arguing he would be better with 1-3 ranged and BS than 1-1 ranged and BS - which I don't dispute. Of course, if you add +2 Max RNG to anything it gets better. I'm just saying that BS is less valuable on him when he has 1-3 ranged.

    Let me start with saying something. I think the secondary effect of bloodspear is (on the whole) negligible. It's nice, but 8HP doesn't matter hugely. In these examples, I am going to ignore it and the LoL component, for simplicity's sake.

    Next, let's consider a few circumstances:

    1) Enemy Champion is one space away.
    If count had 1-3 ranged: Blood spear is pointless.
    If count had 1-1 ranged: Blood spear has limited use. Costs same AP to move and attack, but might leave you in a more vulnerable position.

    2) Enemy Champion is two spaces away.
    If count had 1-3 ranged: Blood spear is pointless.
    If count had 1-1 ranged: Blood spear is useful. Saves AP, and probably leaves you in a less vulnerable position.

    3) Enemy Champion is three spaces away.
    If count had 1-3 ranged: Blood spear is pointless.
    If count had 1-1 ranged: Blood spear is even better. Saves even more AP, better position, etc.

    4) Enemy Champion is four spaces away.
    If count had 1-3 ranged: Blood spear has limited use. Costs same AP to move and attack, but might leave you in a more vulnerable position.
    If count had 1-1 ranged: Blood spear is even better yet again. Saves even more AP, better position, etc.

    5) Enemy Champion is five spaces away.
    If count had 1-3 ranged: Blood spear is finally useful. Saves you AP, and all the other bonuses.
    If count had 1-1 ranged: Blood spear is even better yet again. Saves even more AP, better position, etc.

    AP saved if he had 1-3 range (across all examples): 1
    AP saved if he had 1-1 range (across all examples): 10

    Extra area you can attack at when 1-3 ranged (whilst saving AP): 20
    Extra area you can attack at when 1-1 ranged (whilst saving AP): 60
  10. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    This much we can agree on.
    voodoov likes this.
  11. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Systematically ran through the first five positions an enemy champion could be relative to your champion, and compared the value of BS on the 1-3 ranged champion and on the 1-1 ranged champion.

    Didn't bother writing a conclusion or anything like that because I assumed you'd be able to understand what was going on. My bad.
  12. Streea

    Streea The King of Potatoes

    I get what you're saying Tweek. BS has benefits on a champion with 1 range. Easy to understand. Originally? BS was not needed on the Bloodbinder count cause he had 1-3 range. Sure, nerfing his range to 1 range, and giving him BS is all fine and dandy. However, he went from being an effective controller during these nerfs, to a glorified beat stick. You can't justify anything regarding his current state with "Oh he has a LoL range attack" - Hello, FW? We have LoL damage pouring out of our rotten corpses.

    Can't say "You want CC? You got Bloodbind still" - That's correct. A 70 nora champion. That can't even proc its own CC without the aid of a relic/spell/the odd FW champion that has it. That can't be justified vs IS's spell that costs 40(ish) nora to do the exact same thing. You can even compare it to 'Binding Chains' or any other 'Binding' active ability. Remove commander or Combat Awareness and slot DMZ there instead so that he can actually use his own way of proccing his own unique ability (no one else has Blood bind) would make him a solid addition once more. Not some champion that goes in "Here's an entanglement-like ability for you to laugh at me over." and then move to melee to beat stick it up until death.
  13. potatonuts

    potatonuts I need me some PIE!

    Those are just isolated instances with no given context. Your 'statistics' are meaningless unless they somehow take into account all AP expenditure leading up to and following these examples. You'd have to perform extensive data collection and analysis across real games in order to prove your argument with accurate statistics.
  14. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    All models are flawed. You could say the same thing about every argument that everybody has ever made on these forums.
  15. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    I'm not offering comment on count at all, I'm just saying that pseudo ranged attacks are better on a champion with 1-1 ranged rather than a champion with 1-3 ranged.

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