Non-Client Non-Balance Stuff

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. LoganMkv

    LoganMkv I need me some PIE!

    They restrict design space, they limit deck variety greatly, and they make games too draw-dependent in some cases.
     
  2. MrBadguy

    MrBadguy Guest

    They restrict design space unless devs go the powercreep or banlist route. But yeah, counter or lose stuff is dumb and one of the most frequently patched things in TCGs even if it's not necessarily destroying competitive. The decisive factor is ease of use and consistency, more often than not. Brainlets will defend it endlessly, however.
     
  3. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Double all rune cooldowns.
     
  4. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    Double Shrine nora production.
     
  5. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - All kidding aside, increase nora production... will speed up games for sure
     
  6. Kampel

    Kampel I need me some PIE!

    So what was picked from this thread to be worked on?
     
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    The plan is to work on Charged abilities, then some themes.
     
    Woffleet and Kampel like this.
  8. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    How do you want the Charge abilities handled? Any thoughts or direction at the moment. At least, what bothers you about them?
     
  9. Braxzee

    Braxzee I need me some PIE!

    Any potential in adding another crystal ability? Something like Chill 3. On the crystal theme it would be nice to have immortality back on the crystals. That was a big deal for them in the BG planning phase, especially now that they are more options available for crystal champs.
     
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    So the original idea of charges was to create a resource based alternative/addition to just AP/CD. The concept itself is fine, as it allows for new ways to control power/usage of an ability. However, the specific implementation created, to a large extent, a bunch of abilities and interactions that are clunky and thematically lifeless. In many cases, there is no real reason why a champion has a specific Charged ability instead of just the normal version of the same ability.

    The types of Charged abilities I like are the ones that do something different than existing abilities such as X Amp, and utilizing the Charges in an interesting/distinct way. Another use I like is in the case of the Charged Heal ability on Vengeant Templar primarily because he gains Charges via Attacks.

    So the goal of changes would be:
    • Remove Charged abilities from champions and replace them with the non-Charged version, as well as any Charge generating abilities
      • This would be for champions for which the Charged abilities don't make much thematic sense or doesn't really change the way the abilities end up playing out in a meaningful way
    • Replace Charged abilities from some champions with a bundled version of the Charged ability which generates the charges it consumes
    • Remove any remaining effect that Adds or Removes charges from champions
     
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  11. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Alright, cool. I think the only champ-based instance of charge swapping right now is Remove Charge on Hekatian Voidraker's U2. For non-champs, there are 5 sources of charge mechanics -- Seas Song, Mail of Barbs (Abuse Charged 3, Charged Attack), Murder (Attack Charged 1, Nora Thief to Archers/Rangers), Channeled Violence (temp Abuse Charged 2), and Processing Collar (spreads charges around on a trigger). The Mutate ability also gives out charges right now, but only to particular champs (Mutation abilities).

    For anyone watching this thread, here's a list of all the champions that have a potential charge component:

    Lonx Channeler -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/896
    Skeezick Grunt -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1288
    Skeezick Wylder -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1306
    Stitched Librarian -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1381
    Stitched Warlock -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1394
    Dwarven Tinkerer -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/453
    Lower Beast of Sheoul -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/914
    Aspect of Chaos -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/76
    Aspect of Growth -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/79
    Aspect of Infinity -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/80
    Aspect of Oblivion -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/82
    Aspect of Death -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/77
    Aspect of Divinity -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/78
    Aspect of Life -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/81
    Bluefist -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/141
    Redfist -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1168
    Draksar Persecutor -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/414
    Grintmaw Sealer -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/700
    Jangar Architect -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/819
    Sheoul Magus -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1263
    Tremir Craghide -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1477
    Mutant Yeti -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1013
    Anthropomancer -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/48
    Mutant Doctor -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1012
    Putrid Creeper -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1150
    Matriarch Sarinda -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/938
    Stitched Seamstress -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1389
    Darkmarsh Sorcerer -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/327
    Ritual Crone -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1182
    Draksar Marauder -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/410
    Jakei Owl Raider -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/805
    Salaman Rook -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1212
    Utterdark Fadewhisp -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1496
    Vengeant Templar -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1525
    Vex -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1529
    Deep Leviathan -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/354
    Darkmarsh Witch -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/328
    Keeper of Memories -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/857
    Negation Mage -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1057
    Ritual Cultist -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1183
    Ruthless Netmaster -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1198
    Chronomancer -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/219
    Jakei Elementalist -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/795
    Tortun Portalmage -- http://s-qpoxdb.rhcloud.com/champ/1466
     
  12. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Personally I like how mutate and the mutation charge abilities interact. Perhaps mutate could force the next mutation and put it on cooldown without adding charges.
     
  13. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Also don't forget spells like sea song and gore explosion that add and remove charges
     
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Agreed.

    We'll probably make the old Mutation abilities work like the new ones, and then tie Mutate into that.
     
  15. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Faster game mode, probably not doable, but would be fun
    only the small maps
    only 10,15 or 20 cards in the BG
    all (more) cards visible at the start
    each turn 30sec
     
  16. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Garu theme changes

    Garu cubs
    4 damage, 1 range, 4 speed, 0 defense, 12 hp
    Attack: Physical
    Garu Cub: After 8 turns this champion may be targeted by Garu training. After 12 turns this champion will gain a second stack of Aged, after 16 turns this champion becomes a Solitary Garu
    Upgrade: 1
    Pawn
    Hibernate

    Upgrade 2:
    Guarded: Garu


    Garu Training: Spirituality Target Aged Garu Cub becomes a garu Shaman, if Target Cub has 2 stacks of aged it will instead become a Garu Whisperer

    Garu Training: Ferocity Target Aged Garu cub becomes a Mountain Garu, If target Cub has 2 stacks of aged it will instead become a Garu Kodiak

    Garu Den Mother
    Attack: Physical
    Summon Garu Cub
    Gift of Fertility
    Hibernate

    Upgrade 1:
    Protective
    Enrage 1

    Upgrade 2:
    Heal mass 1,2,3

    Elder Garu
    Garu Training: Ferocity
    Garu Parent: When this unit is within 5 spaces of a Garu Cub and an enemy unit it gains +4 damage, +1 defence and +1 speed
    Augment Creation

    Upgrade 1:
    not entirely sure, something kinda support/self healy

    Upgrade 2:
    Protective
    Charge 3
    Reinforcements

    Garu Medium

    Basically the same but with train garu spirituality
     
  17. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    New things (decks) to buy in the marketplace, i did really enjoy the new decks that was released for a while and it did eat up a 100k gold or so.
    Not sure how hard it would be to have players submit decks based on splits, race and have them being sold for 5k gold, sure there are always partypoopers that only count shardvalue vs cost.
    but monthly new decks or atleast released 3-4 times per year with, there are so many decks out there so think it would be fun to see a few more in the marketplace even if they are just for sale for a month until next group of decks arrive
     
  18. MrBadguy

    MrBadguy Guest

    Should Fry work on fliers? I mean, you fry the water and I wouldn't imagine the steam would hurt them that much.
     
  19. mortal ix

    mortal ix I need me some PIE!

    Just to throw in an observation ive made over the years since I started playing this game. Limitations to what you can do, makes the game more challenging and dynamic. For instance if memory doesnt serve me completely wrong, barbarians and dwarves had a severe drawback if you played them together. Same thing went with vulnerabilities and amping. It made for a big headache balancewise, but it also provided alot more design space. Feel free to correct me if im wrong. But in my humble opinion and with no background whatsover as designer and not a "skilled player" that being said I feel less sometimes is more and that may be one of the actual hurdles that could help this game in the right direction.

    Basis for this thought, I remember when this game was streamlined and those restrictions and drawbacks you often had when playing certain runes together made for a simpler gameplay but I dont neccesarily find that to be a good thing due to the issues of "goodstuff" and the mere focus of winning vs the focus of having fun and having flavor in the game made the game alot poorer both in aesthetics and in the gameplay experience.

    My question following with this ressonement is this:

    Do you think taking a sharp turn in this direction designwise would be a bad idea and if so why, and if not how would that be best implemented with economy in mind?
     
  20. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    This is very important. An extension would be the immunity:x damage it doesn't add game depth. And hard counters in general, such as mirrored and elusive / arrow eater, things which have no counter play other than to throw nora to deploy a counter (which isn't a bad way to solve a problem, but it shouldn't be the ONLY way)
     

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