They are very flawed, but there are quite a few (not enough imo) champions with manual cost changes. One of the largest problems imo is that I don't think Sok plays enough.
I don't find any particular rule of thumb around nora cost averages or HP ratios. Rather I try to determine the roles within each BG and go from there. Mostly looking at ability combos, immunities, etc. I usually end up with several low nora champs for the double deploy option, a couple of key biggies, and utility in the middle. More a role and specific nora band approach than averages and ratios.
What a great oversimplification of the discussion. It's almost like you want to divert attention away from ST bonus. When you have 60+hp acolyte becomes really good. It's not like it's hard to access ice damage in st either. Back to the original point, efficiency is the name of the game. A LOT of that has to do with the hp/nora ratio.
Just go to the checklist and pick ST's most efficient champions, HP/nora wise. Make a BG with them and go ranked. Please.
If the at bonus was nerfed into the ground tommorrow at best i'd be annoyed that the other 5 solid bonuses were left alone but that's how the cookie crumbles. I'd be happy if it was the last time i'd need to hear about it but I know the rants never stop, if it stopped tommorrow it would just be another 10 years of non stop whining about something else. Your points about adept on higher hp is true but no more true then on a regen ability, as was pointed out adept can perform better then a regen but it usually doesn't you might heal 8 or even a full 12 over a round then heal nothing on another, you might even wish you had regen if the unit would die to an aura or dot which adept does nothing for
That's the beast theme. Though even i beasts you don't really do that. Beasts in ff is also really meh right now in st. Used to be good but mostly cause of the effeciency of the old beast supports like mother, aza, baby furbul Thats not to say the opinion of many that hp/nora ratio isn't strong but the hp is such a small part of the equation of what makes a unit good.
Regen costs 7 but acolyte has double the healing potential. Which lets be honest extinguisher can get all of that every turn no problem
The other good bonuses I assume are SP/FS/KF/UD/SL? Most people don't consider FW or IS bonus to be that great and I agree. As far as bonuses go, I am of the opinion that ST/FS/SP>SL>KF>UD>IS/FW. I value nora efficiency above just about every other metric. ST bonus allows it through their champs being crazy efficient so the enemy has to spend more nora and ap to kill st units which is a valuable form of efficiency. SP/FS bonuses speak for themselves. I think the SL is just behind as their bonus plays a similar role to the ST bonus but I think +10 HP is better than -2 on attacks. +1 Speed should theoretically be up at the top but since the maps and champs have been streamlined to 6-7spd champs primarily and very little advantage in terms of rushing. Nowadays, teleport/leap/etc. do more than +1 spd. The rest of the bonuses are pretty bad.
dont forget though the speed upgrade is worth about 8 nora. Then again so are all the faction bonuses.
I thought it was 8 nora vs 5, which is quite a big discrepancy tbh regen is costs 60% more than a similar ability, even if it is more volatile they are both still quite consistent imo. Also FS bonus is way better than any of the others imo its more like FS > ST/SP > ... > IS/FW ST bonus is different in that you can think of it as adding a percentage HP increase to champions. Essence drain is worth far less on champions with low HP count and inversely the ST bonus is hugely invaluable on champions with low HP count. Hence I don't think its fair to call ST bonus a flat 8 nora value bonus since it is generally worth a lot more considering the current ST meta is all sub 75 nora champions pushing its efficiency over the top. Anyways I don't think the bonus is in need of a nerf, change acolyte a bit, delete the yeti ghost, snowspinner and aspect and I think the faction will be fine. Edit: And take immortality of that stupid phoenix.
and you never played against magic acolyte or fire acolyte or acid acolyte (COS healing 6 from acid acolyte plus regen is not very powerful compared to just 6 from frost acolyte) and backed up with other healing. Acolyte and Ice eaters are the ST way of healing which now has a cap per round on it. Which is a huge nerf to the ST faction as a whole due to lack of the healing in the faction. So now to make up for it you have traditional healers thrown in to the faction which I feel should be removed and acolyte and ice eater get a slight buff. If you look at the magic acolyte theme in KF with all of it s healing it is far better than what Extinguisher can do in ST in forms of healing. Acolyte as a whole can be looked at a possible regen 6. Regen 6 is better as you can withdraw the champ and you are guaranteed to heal versus you have to spend ap and Nora in order to heal an acolyte champ.
I would like to see someone go play with a bunch of mastodons and rhinos and Jakei Bruisers and see how they rank with them. They are STs best and most efficient HP for Nora champs
Actually I didn't mean only beasts, but of course they're included. Non-beasts would be Jakei Bruiser, Jakei Climber, Risen Yeti, Leaf on the Wind (yes a Ferren), Tundra Yeti, Lonx Facilitator, Yeti Scout, Lonx Snowguard... I doubt anyone would disagree that these guys aren't efficient HP/Nora wise. I say that HP/nora ratio rarely means anything by itself.
Wait ST lacks healing? Nice meme. Acolyte nerf was because if you didn't one round a champ then you could just ice storm the next round and bring it back to full health. You want to nerf dedicated healing champs or get rid of them so your other champs are even more efficient and you will never have to consider keeping a slot open for a healing unit. Unreal. How is the KF magic theme better? ST amp has legit been a top bg since its inception. It's been ran in the top 5 for years. How does the KF theme surpass the ST one? It's already been established that the higher the health pool the more efficient things like acolyte become. ST has much higher hp pools and the same access to ice damage that KF has to magic. I guess KF probably has more champs with healing abilities but why would you run dedicated healing champs in a magic deck? Or an ice deck? You seem to believe that other factions should have to spend nora on healing but ST shouldn't. In any case, if you run either bg (ST or KF) you will probably only run one phoenix or one support champ.
kf amp is not better then st amp except that it can bend spirit of the mountain over a log and have it's way with it. the only advantages that come to mind in regards to kf amp is far better ranged units, better aoe's, better non direct damage via nova's, better defensive support options, better mobility, better relics, better heroes, and with exceptions better equips, also fae tend to be pretty effecient when the bonus is taken into account with exceptions obviously. in the realm of sheer damage output and tanks amp is indeed better.
Just... lol. Far better ranged units? You think Elven Mage is far better than Shard Master or Ice Caster? Not even close. I'm not sure what you mean by defensive support options. Better mobility and relics than the relic that gives you mobility and retreat or the relic that gives you a frost beam? There is no hero in KF that I would run. I would consider Bliss or Mena in some situations but if you want to say they are better for a magic amp bg than any ST heroes in an ice amp bg then that is fine. I think equips are pretty even but if you really value fern and HoO then that's fine. Fae is hot garbage. It has been utter trash for a very long time. You also claimed that KF has better aoe? KF has nova and one champion with magic bomb. This is better than the ice beams, ice cones, and ice auras? You're being silly.
He's referring to Throne of the Circle, which gives all wizard champions in magic amp 3 ranks of Magic Nova.
