(OLD) Next Patch Feedback Suggestions

Hey Shimaru... take a gander at Elsari Coven again.
Apparently it did go through and does count all units with witch ^_^

 

Had post this in split but since he is undead.

For Magus the fallen.
Propose adaptive: Ironfist & adaptive: FW be put into different set of upgrades so both can chosen.
He is a fallen paladin FW/IS hero who has access to power from both side!!

 

I actually second the faction bonus change. Perhaps we could get boon of the undead as a faction bonus instead of a racial, since the racial seems to up the cost of all of our runes. Something like, "Whenever a rune recovers a nora globe it recovers 50/25% more nora" or "Whenever a unit is defeated you gain 20/10% of that units nora value"

 

Inkblight losing revel in misery?
Lich king losing surge skelly, can we do something for the rifleman then.

 

Please note that we have roughly 3 weeks to form this so I'll be modifying/using the list to spark feedback so that something well formed can be submitted after that time.

Please also note that there are a ton of runes that could use adjustment so prioritizing what/where/how is a good idea.

 

I'm new to FW, but i would LOVE to see High Warlock get race: Zombie again... =(

 

I find these suggested changes benevolent, for the most part, especially what you have for the Lich King.

And while I understand where you're going with the faction bonus change, and it could be quite beneficial indeed, solving cost issues for our champs, the lot of them (I'm noticing boon is no longer going to give fearless? cost decrease?).

Still we must discuss much more in depth about the faction bonus change itself. What it will be. Does an extra couple reveals really stand up against other factions bonuses? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure it would not. It would also be completely useless when we can always scry endlessly and just drop a Tome of Hate.

So let's say we have the undead boon of the undead racial be the part of our faction that lets our cooldowns stay low (which is very important for us, don't nerf that aspect too hard or we can't compete, just saying, like cooldown reduced by 4 is way too underpowered).
If that leaves us with room to have an efficient faction bonus, how about a form of death benefit, so that when a champion of yours dies, you gain a percentage of their nora. And yes, it should stack with the Death Bird.

If we have to prioritize things, while there are plenty of other things to look at and tinker with, I'm going to focus on making sure we don't Firk up the most important thing. And from these suggestions, faction bonus and how we'll be keeping low cooldowns are bar-none THEE most important things to be concerned about. Because it has a dual potential: It has the potential to give this faction a more flexible standing with less issues to resolve, or it could just send us up Bane Shift creek without a paddle.

 

Going to go down the list with this one.

Can't we just call it Banshee X?

Not a fan of attack: disease on anything, mostly because it should be a cost reduction on a rune since it also prevents attacks on shrines and relics. As for the rest, it looks like you want to change our fail witch/striker into a disease witch. If that is the case, remove damage shield: disease 3 and bump revel in misery to base. Then swap in Forsaken exploit. Also, desecrated zone 1 is almost completely worthless as an ability. 2 and 3 can have a use but I would rather see the entire tree center around the witch/revel in misery theme. So Curse 2, Hex 2, and Charm 3 (it is a seductress...)

So we are really going new toys on this instead of the old stand by's I see. Again, I would rather see curse, hex, something else than curse 1, 2, 3 on anything. I would also rather see necromancer get a bump long before this does.

Soul linked is just about the only reason this champion exists. In PvP it might not be very useful but holy crap in single player is it a great ability. I also want to note that collection of souls is just about the only unit in FW that buffs other units directly. Impart, Transfer life, and Enhance weapon, take at least one of these for an upgrade or even a base ability (I would go transfer life and let other units suck souls off of this unit instead of the unit wasting its turn to use it but that is just me.) You are changing him from a support to a striker, not sure how I feel about that.

No...no no no a million times hell no. Liches as a theme pisses me off in general. Liches hate each other, they do NOT get along and tend to work against each other in nearly every myth I have ever seen. I liked where he was, a glass cannon on the skeleton theme. All liches should be like that, cannons that back up their respective themes. Trying to shoehorn them together and make...what...an average cost 100 per rune battle group? should be the last thing we are trying to do. Also, he ain't serkan, fix the real leader before you fix the false king (that really doesn't even need a fix in my opinion, yeah, he is slow to build and fragile but if played well he is a beast. He was shoebox before but now he actually sees play once a moon. With these changes I think he will end up back in that shoebox.) Also, please do not snip the skeleton theme...

Skipping 6 since I don't use the spell ever. Bonus reveals is not something we should be aiming for as a faction bonus. It has been mentioned before but it bears repeating, you can just scry a couple rounds for the same faction bonus while every other faction is a static boost of some kind. Honestly our bonus should be what shattered peaks bonus is but that is beside the point. Maybe we should look at boon of the undead more. It should die (ha!) since nearly 90% of our faction has it and we should really look at changing it to something else. I would like to see it become three abilities honestly, to represent the three main undead types we have. Skeleton (this unit cannot be diseased, poisoned, chilled, charred, or eviscerated. It takes 50% more damage from physical attacks) Spirit (This unit can become incorporeal and has phase cleansing. It takes 50% more damage from magic attacks) and Zombie (This unit has Immunity: Disease and Ally: Forsaken Waste. It takes 50% more damage from fire attacks) Again, that is just me but I think it makes more sense than a blanket bonus. After that we can take the boon of the undead +20% nora on globe capture and just add it to our existing faction bonus.

Give this ability some time to play out as written first. It just got changed. Focus on other abilities before thisone.

Sorry if it doesn't seem like I am being helpful...just giving my opinions...

 

*facedesk*

Remarks like "move creeps to last" or "[no] true FW player really gives a crap about creeps" tell me you care less about FW as a whole than whatever you enjoy playing. It's unhealthy for the game and leads to less enjoyment for all. Liches (Skeletons), Witches and Wurmz (Creepers) are ideal candidates for focused attention. Let's establish a concreate play style to anchor them in that we more or less agree on.

Part of the reason Wurmz are so bizarre right now is we put a considerable amount of effort into identifying their problems, but we hadn't finished working through what their unified purpose should be. The result is the chaotic Creeper/Fesh/Worm blargh we have now. This mess could have been avoided if we waited until the upcoming patch to change them while pushing Witch or Lich suggestions that had been around longer in the last patch.

The Creeper/Fesh merger took me by surprise in exactly the same way that merging Kas/Ferren Focus did. There was zero indication it was even being considered and many would have argued against doing it or at least asked for more time to work out a better way to handle it.

With the above in mind, take the time to explain what you think each theme's underlying mechanic should be. We all agree that Witches rely on Curse, but we disagree on how Liches should piece together. It's unwise to argue over changes to individual runes when we can't agree on why they need to be changed.

I want to see less "Buff my stuff NAOW, all these other themes suck!" and more "This theme actually sucks, BUFF DAT!" If you disagree with the themes I mentioned, please explain what themes you believe need our attention more and why. I'm see a lot of arbitrary changes to even more arbitrarily chosen runes as a result of this lack of thematic definition..

For example, this doesn't make sense:

We can't just yank a spell dedicated to another faction's theme and force it into one of our own (Witches). The rune art doesn't support it, the flavor text doesn't support it, nothing in Witches supports it and changing its name won't change that.

Consider Snuff. We took Necrosis (an unrelated spell), turned it into a Wurmz spell (Necro Hex) and completely ignored the actual Wurmz spell which is still attached to Mutants. This kind of oversight will become the norm if we continue shooting from the hip.

We should be looking at spells that already cater to Witches in some way:

Chains of Corruption (Humans)
Elsarin Night (Elusive, Zombies)
Foul Rite (Humans)
Ritual of Ashes (Curse)
Soulbane (Curse)
Witching Hour (Witches)
​

With all the time we have, let's identify priority themes, establish a clear understanding for what they should do and discuss changes to what they already have. No more roping in unrelated runes "just cuz."

 

Alright, here we go...

FW Themes: Overall theme is attrition, we win by outlasting the opponent and using their units death against them.

Skeletons: These are our base units as much as they are a theme. They are the ones that last through the abuse by splintering, splitting, or ignoring damage. They are also our sacrifice play units, we use them as fuel for other things.

Zombies: Disease damage and propagation. These should be weak (damage wise) but get stronger in numbers and produce more of themselves (or just festering corpses, whichever works) They are also often our tanky units.

Spirits: This is our DOT group and nora generation. They should again be fairly weak but they should also mine nora from the enemy like crazy.

Witches: Curse, Hex, elsari coven. I tend not to use them because we are the undead, not the underdepths, that and I try to F2P the game...they are to new for me to have many.

Vampires: Life stealers and outlasters. They take your enemies health and make it their own. Higher attack and HP but no real defense.

Liches: The guys in the back of the pack, raining spells while the enemy is busy with the front line skeletons/zombies/vampires. Expensive but powerful glass cannons and summoners.

Humans (non witch): These are the remnants that lead the armies of the undead. Pawn, Forsaken Exploit, Adaptive FW.

 

@Entrepidus ok, what I meant was that creeps are something left over from the SOE days and by far are the least important theme to our faction. The cornerstone themes are a joke right now. FIX THE CORNERSTONES FIRST, then fix creeps.

 

Yes, we can just yank a spell. What about the FW/ST smelly dragon that got the split treatment? Reflection combos with revel in misery and saves a lot of time going through and having to patch each rune. It is mostly an efficiency suggestion.

Snuff was talked about and everyone shouted down any change to the spell so it literally stayed the same. Nothing I could do about that beyond just not listening to people witch I do not want to do. I want to be as inclusive as possible.

 

I still disagree, but at least now I can respond by asking you to explain what themes you consider to be the cornerstones of FW. Something like what @mortemdeus posted is very helpful to me (and hopefully others) as I now have a better idea of what motivates his suggestions.

For the record, I didn't like the change to Hoarfrost Dragon. I don't understand why so many runes have been converted to SF as opposed to remaining FF runes with Ally: FACTION. Having said that, I feel it's an incredibly weak point to use the equivalent of "they did it before, so what's wrong with doing it again?" as a reason for doing anything. I didn't agree with it then and I still don't agree with it now.

Also, efficient compared to what? I don't see how co-opting a rune from another theme in another faction is more efficient than tweaking runes in FW that already support the theme you're targeting. Why would you need to go through and "patch each rune?" Which runes are you referring to and how will gaining Reflection from an ST spell save time?

Why do you want the Reflection + Revel in Misery combo? Is there a specific need for it? Do you simply find the idea cool? What specific problem within Witches does mass Reflection address? Do you believe that a lateral buff will "fix" Witches? I'd appreciate further elaboration because right now I am literally stuck at "I. . . don't. . . even. . .?"

Could you specify who "everyone" is? If you're talking about other members of the PCR, that's unfortunate. If you're saying that it was opposed when brought up in the FW forums, I'd ask for links so I can read up on what, exactly, the concerns were.

 

Everyone includes the peeps including myself who participated in the creep feedback on the thread.
In essence there was a good amount of support for just leaving Snuff as is as it was run in zombies as a 1 of.
http://forums.poxnora.desertowlgames.com/index.php?threads/creep-salvation.5662/

It's fine if we disagree regarding splitting spells.
I just thought it would be a good idea since Revel and Misery combos so nicely with damage shields and reflection the ability.
My reasoning is not "they did it so why not us" my reasoning is it combos with misery plain and simple. Why not have it so you DON'T have to split with ST to gain that bg piece for the theme.

 

@Entrepidus for starters, liches and skeles. For the record, I'm not against creeps, but let's focus on what makes FW FW first then worry about a brand new theme that isn't vital to the success of FW.

 

Bad, this is why we can't have nice things. If the witch theme gets a "you hit me, I hit you for free and heal" we will get cries for nerf from every other faction. It is a neat idea and not a particularly over powered one but it is abusive of a few mechanics and that is all it takes to ruin the theme down the road. I would rather focus on interplay between the witches than independent abilities that make things powerful. Ideas like "witches have revel in misery so lets give them a lot of curse and hex" are better, I think, because then we can use them to curse the entire enemy army and heal from that. It is more strategic than the auto effect abilities and a bit harder to focus a nerf bat on than what you suggest.

 

Lich king becoming more lich synergized sounds cool to me.

Ink blight, and the witch theme died to me when ink blight lost shroud. I thought that ink blight with blind and shroud really made the witch bg, pop. Witches being so range heavy, it was awesome having a DMZ champ to shroud them, and blind any beaters that ran up on them. If ink blight could get shroud back I would love witches.

 

@yobanchi @Entrepidus @mortemdeus Ok hear me out on this one guys. You have to read what I'm saying here.

If we want the core of this faction to be able to stand strong, it will inevitably lead to our themes getting the adjustments they need to be a part of this faction and thrive, or at least survive. That is my thesis.

But not only that, it will make the necessary changes more within reach, and much more visible.

The explanation is this, within what I advocate. Take a look at the "Take A Look At Liches" thread. Some of you already have. If we solidify the core theme that FW is really about, it would imply undead in general should be addressed, adding to that the new roles of Liches being put in to consideration, which I highly advocate as well. It would mean overall synergy, where as one could put a FW bg together and it would work no matter if its skellies, zombies, spirits, or a mix of it all, which FW in reality is. A diverse kingdom of many different kinds of undeath. One of our bgs should be able to function efficiently together in general, not as one theme or another but in general.

With appropriate changes to Liches (which would only be made better with improvement to disease) this faction will have a core, from which Liches can boost other themes, perhaps indeed with specific upgrade path possibilities for one kind of theme or another, but the general option is there and that's what makes it work without being too overpowered.

If you were an inhabitant of poxanthru and you and your crew of thugs ran into a crew from the Forsaken Wastes, likelyhood was that there was at least one Lich there running things. And that Lich would be able to 1v1 one of your guys but he wouldn't be able to take you all on, he would escape and teleport off somewhere and then show up when you least expect it with a bigger squad.

I am looking forward to where Liches are going to be going with their more clearly identified role. I do not understand the people who are against these things. If you want Lich King to remain a glass cannon, I believe he will still essentially be a glass cannon, but with supportive capability, and less baggage that he doesn't need that only brings his cost up. As it stands, no matter how you cut it, there is no desire for Lich King to remain as costly as he is. He would be much better with regal presence and loss of immortality.
He could also lose a small bit of damage in turn for more hp. His defensive shield abilities are costly and not worth it if you are playing him correctly and keeping him protected, which is also easier with a supportive ability. Not to mention, you can still do a couple repurposes on the Lich King, and he'll still shine. You can even keep surge if you really want. But make that an option, a choice. Lich King will have needed these changes for quite some time in my honest opinion, even way long ago when he was 100 nora and one of the most valued champs to have aside from Dwarven King, I felt he was too expensive. Changing him now isn't too late, and the themes people wish to be better will get a boost from it, and can then adjust accordingly.

 

This, I like. I don't feel Liches should be a theme in and of themselves. But there should be like Race: Lich, Zombie or Lich, Spirit and they should be the commander/support runes in our other themes. A theme of just liches would make about as much sense as an army of generals, IMO.

 

An army of generals, HA ill copy that for future references thx, well as far as we go, the dark knight can be our lich zombie commander, but other lichs like anthropomancer cleric of unrest and eternal lichs dont seem to be a "General" in an army, and what is going to happen to those that are the support for other lichs like dark apprentice, i agreed to not make a WHOLE lichs theme but they are there waiting for it, in he future we might have to make changes for them as well.