(OLD) Next Patch Feedback Suggestions

You might need to remove the -1 speed and +5 damage from the basic curse attack. The grounded condition doesn't do nearly that much by itself (and only effects certain units). Or make it an ability separate from the basic attack that certain units could acquire.

 

yeah, probably would have to be separate ability

 

Ok, I got a little ahead of myself. Why force Blood Banshee into the witch theme when you can just do that with elsari magelord and forgo all those issues.

 

instead of liches being their own theme, I would like to see them split up into the various themes (but not surge skeleton on the lich king, that bugs me somehow). I'd like there to be a reason to sprinkle one or two liches into every theme. so the magelord could get coven (but not class witch). that would be fine. I could go into detail with the suggestions, but its tiresome and you may or may not forward the suggestions and gedden may or may not implement them. and even if he does it may or may not work the way I hoped it would and the whole process would just embitter me further. its obvious to me now im never going to be happy with any one persons vision of this game besides my own.

I think the best thing to do now is just let it fail for good and hope they open source it so the modding community can fix it.

 

Wait, now we're catching on? I was saying this with the original 'issues' that came up because people didn't like that he wasn't a witch. I blame the 'cram everything you can' mentality on that one. Magelords and Shadestrikers both make appearance in most of my witch battle groups, not because they're the only option...because they work.

Could Magelord (Witchlord?) work a little better in witches? Yes. But we wanted to make a witch with pain curse, or at least a lot of people more vocal than myself.

The only thing I don't want to see happen to the Banshee is her getting shoved into only one faction. She may not have been good as a bridge piece for a hybridized deck, but she was a bridge piece, and I think if nothing else, that needs to stay.

 

Yeah, I see the light now Mercer, I've actually taken banshee off the table. Others have stated that she's a bridge piece between spirits and vampyres and that her toolkit is pretty much fine as is. A lot more leeway and efficiency will be in just having Elsari Mage(which)lord be witchified.

@Ragic I see where you're going with this per the lichee thread.

Perhaps he can stay a lich but just work better with them... So either full blown Lich Witch or Lich with commander witch.
Commander witch does fill a lot of holes in the witch bg concerning survivability with the change to witching hour.
I'll meet you half way.

 

5) Elsari Magelord
Name- Elsari Witchlord
Race: Human Class: Witch
Path 1 (Curse 1, Curse 2, Commander: Witch)
Path 2 (Rabid 2, Doom, Shadestrike)
Base: Attack: Magical, Pain Curse, Elsari Coven

I see he will be Witch-only (coven and pain curse on base), which is fine. He could do with something more compelling on Upgrade Path 1, because Curse 1/2 would never be picked.

Maybe as simple as swapping Coven and Commander?

For the record, I still think this patch should make Coven do something for the witches that take it. A buff based on there being 3 or more of them in play does work quite well, because you need to balance the fact that one alone can supply the curse buff, but you need a certain amount of them for the personal buff.


Also think that with Detection and Forsaken Exploit on Black Ops, it could just remain as "Black Ops"

 

Ah keep the name then that sounds fine.
I modified the magelord again ^_^. Keeping him lich witch... sounds kinda funny but ok.

 

Hmm, if he has Revel as his Lich upgrade and Pain Curse on base then maybe Coven on base would be good in both witches and liches on second thought.

Shadestrike units and dmz in general in a Lich BG would let him heal up quite a lot.

 

Mod...coven base, evil aura swap for a cheaper upgrade slot?

 

Oh, and suggested names:

Elsari Warlock (tbh, I kind of think a unit that is both a witch and wizard should be classed as a Warlock)

Elsari Painlord

Elsarin Dreadlord

 

Oh, for the Forsaken Follower I might recommend Summon Skeleton 1 or 3 instead of 1 or 2. The choice is generally going to be a sacrifical target or a meat shield.

nvm, 4 more nora for 3 extra hp aint worth it. Though tbh that's also the difference between rank 1 and 2. So I guess rank 2 might just not get picked up at all. Maybe Summon Festering Corpse instead of Summon Skeleton 2? Bigger cooldown, but cheaper Pawn meat by far.

The extra cooldown also means he isn't as good for sacrificing since the CD is longer than the ritual's.

 

@Mercer Skye @yobanchi

Well, that proves how often I have been using curse lately.

Now, I'll have to insist increasing the range on curse won't be enough of a fix. 1-6 range is a pretty good range, don't get me wrong, problem is, compared to all the other pseudo-range abilities, 50% is pretty weak, and the debuff isn't very relevant. Most abilities take the base damage at full, and most deal additional damage on top of applying some other condition. Then, most have some condition. Think on flame web: range 1-4, deals 70% or 8 damage (whatever is higher), grounds and applies charred 2, which is another 3 damage, so 11hp at minimun on each use. And that isn't the most powerful ability, that would be hawk attack. Following that, modifying the nora cost of an ability is an important thing to do, but only relevant when the ability is worth to keep on first place. Honestly, for 2n, I would prefer to pay 2n extra to get magical attack. If there are no plans to actually use an ability, then even for 1n is a sandbag. Even at range 6, the situations where I can think curse would be of any use are fairly limited.

On another topic: I think when the witch theme was revamped into its current form, several of us were asking for a bit more synergy between the theme and the magelord. I didn't supported making him a witch at all (I just don't think it fits), but some minimal change would be great, like forsaken exploit or forsaken conduit, aka: Revel in misery. Why it never happened? Because the large majority of the non-fw players shoot it down, I suppose. Other than that, I have no more comments. I'm kind of sad to see the blood banshee disappearing from the list, because I was honestly expecting to see her into our witch themes, but I guess you can't have everything on this life.

 

Could anyone sum up for me what the "witch" theme is supposed to be? In general, what is the play style and what makes it unique? I've read almost this entire thread, so I know the proposed changes and the debates and everything...just unsure of what witches -should- bring to the table collectively, and why you are all anxious to play them when so much is lacking, why are they a priority?

 

They're our 'control' theme. As in, debuff stacking and area denial. As opposed to Liches - Wreck 'em, Skeletons - Beat 'em, and Zombies - Eat 'em, which all pretty much boil down to just plain ol' combat-centric bigger **** bgs. More plainly, they're about finesse, since they're not as sturdy as the dead in the faction.

My question would be, most everything but creeps and witches in FW is mostly in a runnable state, why would you be opposed to bringing our weakest links up to par? (And in all honesty, I think FF Vamps is at the bottom, but they need more work than we'll likely be seeing in a while, like, two or three patches worth of fixes, at minimum).

 

Ah there are many statements but I was waiting for the right questions to start being asked. Indeed Mercer has done so.

That's the thing. They're "runnable". They're not "competitive". The themes each have their own hard counters that they can try to prepare for:
**********
- Theme ~ MAIN Weaknesses - - - Description of possible responses to weaknesses, and description of theme's gimmick/strength.

- Spirits ~ Magic + Detection - - - Can run doom to pinch out the trouble champs but some bgs run too much detection and magic to be overcome. Cleanse is also a counter to hexing, and if they have decent detection your assaults will be very tricky to scheme out. It's the truest "I don't know when or where the next attack will come from, thus I am scared. Unless I'm overconfident, then I walk into a trap and forget how many champs you had on the board because I couldn't see any of them" theme. And once the spirits put all their cards on the table, it's the "omg haunting grip is op, I'm a noob that doesn't run magic damage thus I lose" theme. A bg that runs good magic damage and detection snuffs the spirits advantage out.

- Zombies ~ Tanks + Cleanse - - - Can run reaper's blade against tanks, but it's a pricey investment that requires set-up. Doom again is an option. Another problem with zombies is that they are generally slow not only to build but to assault. So even when you go for a win their slowness will pull it into a longer fight. Thus zombies being the truest "this game is never going to end so I'm just going to surrender" theme. A bg with tanks, heals, cleansing, that kind of stuff... they will just rip through the little zombies like they're a prime rib. And if they have the battle leader thing where they recover 4 hp and +1 damage for killing a champ? They will farm your zombies for damage and then roll through you. Same thing happens to skeletons.

- Skeletons ~ AoEs + Range + Rush - - - Skellies are the oldest theme of FW, they were a theme before there were really themes in this game, only factions. Following suit, time is the most helpful to the skellies. The more time they have to build up they better they function but that is also a weak point. They are vulnerable to a determined rush, and some bgs will farm the skellies from the get go. They are also weak against any kind of AoE, being the faction that has the least healing, and the theme that has absolutely no healing at all, the damage to them counts, and though their cooldowns are low, when they are hurt, they stay hurt. Altar of bones is +max hp and takes a lot of set up and slots in a bg. And a gang of relics in one place is destined to be AoE'd. Their competitiveness is boosted by their "booster" champs, those with boost: skeleton. But those champs are often simply focused down, whereas no matter how defensive you are with a Tomb Lord, keeping him in boost range means putting him at risk. And skellies don't have the best range in the world. Opponents with heavy range or far enough range can not only focus down your boosters, the typical skellies meat is mostly wide open to enemy range. A boneyard infantry can't do jack diddely squat against range other than hope to engage it and maybe get a hit or two in. And then die. They're the "official football team theme of FW where they're just so good at working together as a unit that they body you unless you're organized and on their level, but if you are, you better hurry up before they build up more and get stronger than you." Which then becomes a flexing contest, unless the skellies are bombarded with range, washed away with AoEs, and rushed into defending a single font against an opponent with 2-3.


And now finally...
My recommendations:

Spirits - - - More cheaper champs with insubstantiate, other options of reloction effects and utterdark wormhole. How about this - spirit champs with restless souls. I think it would be much better on a lesser spirit of some sort, that was stealthed, than to have grand old serkan all up in the middle of the fights so RS can proc. J/s. A couple champs in this category could use some looking at. Utterdark planeshift having more interesting upgrade path options would be nice. Aspect of Death is way over priced. Ravenwraith lost her luster, and collection of souls is a slapped around mess. If collection of souls had restless souls it would make PERFECT SENSE. It's a collection of freakin' souls!
Zombies - - - Could use a fast zombie. Like the kind from 28 Days Later. Or Day Z. A berserker zombie that fleshblight was supposed to be but is no more. Dead Fairy is not what I have in mind, but is along those lines. Zombies could also use more options for defiled. It would be great if we continued developing our ideas on experimenting with how disease works, infections and viruses and what not. We could make zombies a very complex theme where death is inevitable. It'll be great, we'll all toast to the rot.
Skeletons - - - Anti range. Combat awareness is probably too much to ask for, but reaper having evasive a turn at the cost of 3 ap is too much. Lerper lost evasive with the revamp. Decayed mercs and infantry are only good against enemy melee and when they're being supported- I recomend more booster options, like the summoners, forsaken follower or necromancer. And while we're at it, lets kill two birds with one stone- fix Bonewing's goddamn range.

More to discuss, but I spurted out enough.

 

@TeaScholar: isn't there already a zombie berserker in Abomination? He gets 8 speed with Berserker 3 upgrade.

 

@TeaScholar Runnability vs Competitive is kind of why I'm on the side of buffing witches. Runnable means you have a reasonable expectation to win matches with some effort. Witches aren't even there yet. Vampyres, like I said, would have actually been my first vote, but they're going to need a lot of work so we can either separate the FW/UD split from FF FW or at least make FF FW vamps viable without overbuffing the split. (LOTS of work)

Zombies, Spirits, Liches (Though I don't think Lich should have ever been a thing), they all have arguably close to competitive builds. And I mean, if we get one big buff round, we could probably sweep through at least the three staples and get them all in that league. Creeps.....well, we're just going to have to figure that out later, they just ate up a buff round.

 

From Gedden's interview on twitch it seems he has some ideas for the vampyre theme in the future anyway so Vamps isn't a very good choice.

 

Agreed, but I'm pretty sure his point was "These themes are runnable...unless you encounter X." They are "runnable", but they can be countered so damn hard.