Patch Preview: Equipment Updates

Yeah, if the text is working as "equipped (enemy champion)" rather than "(enemy-equipped) champion". Based on the enemy relic clause, I'd understand the latter.

Did you mean the comment about it being a thing that could theoretically be played to be a substantial comment, i.e. one that seeks to contribute in a positive or negative manner to a discussion, or was it just a casual observation?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. You can equip an enemy with your own equips, and Blackstaff has no 'Friendly Champion' clause so it can be equipped on your opponents enemy. Clone Matter works properly and selects the equipment on the selected enemy unit, regardless of owner.

As for my comment yes I did think it was relevant and substantial enough to have warranted a post, that's why I said it. Someone was discussing Darkmarsh Blackstaff I furthered that discussion, especially considering that Darkmarsh Blackstaff is on the OP and that if there is an interaction I am thinking of and it is working improperly, ie Clone Matter, then I would think this is also the best place to have mentioned it. Otherwise I or anyone else would have been unaware that something is wrong.

I don't think anything is wrong which Is why I posted the suggested combo. If there is a bug please elaborate so that I can create a new thread for it in bugs.

 

Fixed it...

 

Specifically, that Atelier's reference to "enemy equipped champion" could be read in two ways, and the way in which it apparently currently functions may or may not be WAI, even if it could be technically (though ambiguously) WAD. @Sokolov

 

Works as intended

Works as described

yes...? I'm totally guessing

 

Also Atelier is a copy/paste of Croma's desricption from what I understand since it states '...(including this one)" which Relics can't be equipped. I'm sure with the Patch Preview being for Equips that there will be one soon, or after the midterm, on one about relics.

@kalasle you thinking that Clone Matter can get to be abusive? You wouldn't have to convince me on that, however idt people give it good praise because it's kind of obscure. Honestly it took me several months and then some to finally decide to test the mechanic out, even when it's on Mystic Atelier and that is Common.

Totally understand what you mean by "enemy equipped champion" however if you remove relic from the original description it reads a bit clearer. "Target an enemy equipped champion within 8spaces" This makes me now think that units I own equipped by my enemy may also be selected, since they are enemy equipped. This interpretation would then mean that if I were to equip my opponents units they would fall under the condition of 'Enemy Equipped' because I as their enemy equipped them.

 

Other way around, Atelier came first.

No relics can be equipped. The point I was making was whether "enemy" in "enemy equipped champion" refers to "equipped" or to "champion" (and, in the latter case, would make "enemy-equipped champion" the more accurate grammatical construction) -- whether it says "target enemy champion with an equipment on it" or "target champion with an enemy equipment on it". Currently it works like the former, but the clause relating to relics, which restricts Clone to enemy-generated relics only, would seem to imply that the same rule would hold for equips, i.e. that it would only work on enemy-generate equips; as such, the latter of the two interpretations would be accurate. It isn't, though, so I'm wondering if that is working as intended.

"Clearer" assumes that the "champion"-centered reading is the accurate one. Yes, if you remove a piece or correlated information that implies something, that thing will cease to be implied. I'm well aware of the various ways to interpret the text for Atelier, and why; it's just up to Sok at this point to say which of those interpretations was intentional.

No. I care very little about the apparent power disparities that give folks on these forums apoplectic fits, and I further doubt that Atelier would end up in anything more than a niche combo deck, the kind that looks fancy and crumples if its opponent simply plays correctly.

 

Exactly, WAI simply englobes those things that aren't explicit in description but are in accordance with known mechanics. Consequently WAD is what the rune description dictates. It is quite harder to point if a rune is WAI because sometimes the unexpected effect ends up being part of the rune(as it is in RD for example, I don't know if it 's just ok like that or if it just can't be fixed).

 

I was unaware relics could be equipped, that seems a bit odd to me but kind of...cool?

Pretty interested to see if anything gets changed, but doesn't seem like it would, idk not too invested on Clone Matter it's just fun to run.

 

Typo on my part -- "can't", not can.

Edit: Well, regardless, that statement still wouldn't say that relics can be equipped, because I also missed the comma. So "No relics can be equipped" means "There exist 0 relics that can be equipped", and "No, relics can't be equipped" means essentially the same thing.

 

Oh, and what I ment earlier about Croma being designed first is that perhaps Clone Matter was designed for a champion and that Mystic Atelier was the Common rune designed and released prior to the Champion receiving it, that's how I figure some abilities get worked in. Just speculation. Seems like you have a better idea of what and how things get in, I haven't been involved in that process.

And good I didn't like thinking that relics could be equipped. I probably should have added the comma myself but was baffled by the thought of Relics being equipped.

 

Heacy crossboe

 

What about it? Also remember this is another equip that can be handed out for "free."

 

It was added to the "free" ability because its terrible pewp. Notice that no one ever uses that champion or that ability in a serious game. But if you made it decent, would people use the Armory with an ability cost of 25(?) nora to hand out crap weapons randomly with 1 decent weapon were it to be on a melee. It could also be removed from the ability, same as it wasn't on there when the ability was created. The only time the rune was ever used was 8? years ago when it activated warcry on DKing.

 

Yes, so what would you want to happen to it? Remember that brew was considered terrible, made free and suddenly become OP. When there's "no" cost to something how much power should it provide?

 

On another note I actually hadn't been thinking of the champ, but the relic.

 

I'm confused, BLB was terrible, it was used on bad guys once it was reduced in cost, removed enemy AP and pulse was bonkers. It was then made powerful because the fact that it allowed huge refunds through recycle. Brewmaster changes, gives 1 ap etc, alot happened between when it was terrible and when it was used.

 

l2spell, it's heacy crosboew.

 

I think changes that were made because runes were 'pewp' or under-represented and then just given abilities/mechanics are always something to look over again. This can be said for all the Constructs that received Rock Defiance, any future conversation about the theme has a negative impact because of their unnecessary reason for an existence. It wasn't the initial change to Rock Defiance or Brews that the theme gained strength, but rather later updates and new runes that added to the theme directly or indirectly, which is why taking a second look is never a bad idea. Brews have received several nonchampion runes and continue to be a theme pushed heavily. Intoxicated covers a lot of bases, Class(Dwarf)/Race(Brute)/Racial(Drunkard) so any new runes being designed with any of these on base is going to be a boon to the theme.

Brews, Dwarves, Drunkards and the Intoxicated theme is a good example of a pretty full theme. There are enough runes and various modules between these runes that taking away from one opens up space for another. Balancing the scales so to speak is a lot easier in themes that have more than 40 runes developed specifically for them, not to mention all the runes that indirectly but still push the theme. Certainly a lot of themes are under-developed, I'd ballpark 30 runes as being fully developed and 20-25 runes as acceptable.

Brews got the better treatment cause it was actually placed on runes in theme and didn't have an entirely new module created for them. Although Carouse was changed and Rock Defiance never has been so there lies another major difference. How many brews equip runes are there?

Are there any new runes for expansion 30 that have equipment on them?

 

Don't u mean l2misspell?????