Hello For those not in the know, I am the Player Council Representative for the Underdepths and together with the reps for lesser factions, I submit a list of changes for Gedden to consider for forthcoming balance patches (consider, not necessarily follow). The next patch will again be delayed as Gedden works on the steam release and NUX stuff, which is a shame, though obviously necessary -- but on the plus side we get to suggest more changes than is normal (up to 8 this time). I want you all to help me decide on which runes should change, and how. As you may have noticed, previous patches have focused on nerfing OP stuff rather than buffing the underpowered runes -- well, I think we've got there, and that this can change this time, so I want to work mostly on buffing – though feel free to bring up anything you feel is OP. The Priorities: PROMOTE THEMES. FUN. ACCESSIBILITY. FLAVOUR. Keep these in mind when suggesting stuff. ------------------ Proposed changes: Servile Brute The original purpose of this rune was to be run in a deep elf deck as cheap and hard hitting beef. It got (unfairly imo) nerfed by corpsE after it was run in a UD/SP beast deck that beat him. I want to put it back where it belongs while also guarding against getting too crazy in beast decks: Base damage reduced to 7 +surge demon (or surge demon elf if gedden will code it) (+5 nora) +deep elf bound (-8nora) -immune psychic (-6nora) I think it will end up about 50-61 Nora depending on build, and in a deep elf deck would hit at about 20ish damage including surge, zerker 2 and berserk attack, which is pretty hot for a teddy bear. No defensive abilities, and lose all AP at the end of turn, so I think it wouldn't be too much. Changes in red. Servile Brute- [7 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 2 DEF | 46HP] Path 1 = berserker 2 | berserker 3 Path 2 = berserk attack 1 | berserk attack 2 | berserk attack 3 Base = Attack: physical | pace | surge demon | demon elf bound Hekatian Bloodguard Bloodguard is currently trying to do two things, she has her pet (which is now, quite rightly, very expensive) and she has her bleed abilities (which are kinda overcosted, but i'm working on that). In order to keep both these things going the current model has done it at the expense of stats and nora cost -- which means she is both too expensive to run in a meta deck, and has too low damage and hitpoints to get good use of blood dispersal. I propose separating out the meta champ from the bleed champ. Let's make bloodguard more like other pet champs (boghopper huntmaster, garu denmother) in that it's pet is the thing that defines it, this allows it to focus on that interaction, while the cool bleed abilities go to a champ that can use them properly -- the bok mistress. Not only does this make two underpowered champs runnable, but it serves to make the bleed theme more accessible since we are substituting a very hard to get rune with a common. Below is a version with increased stats and different abilities. Hekatian Bloodguard- [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 45 HP] Path 1 = Drive | Invigorate 1 Path 2 = Defensive Strike | drive | Drain 2 Base = Attack: Magical | Flight | Pet: Screaming Imp I haven't worked out exactly how to cost the stat increases but I think we're looking at about 90 nora for drive + defensive strike upgrade. Also, since she has lost her bleed abilities should she get a new name? Let me know. Bok Mistress A pretty unremarkable and unused rune right now, relaunched to be bleed-tastic. This is based on the suggestion Entrepidus made for the bloodguard, just not on the bloodguard. Bok Mistress- [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 1 DEF | 46 HP] Path 1 = Charm 1 | Charm 2 | Charm 3 Path 2 = Subsume | Soften | Blood Knowledge Base = Attack: Magical | Bleed | Flight | Blood dispersal Cost = 74 - 84 approx Dimension Shift (nerf) becomes 3AP from 2. Minotaurs are jumping around just a little too easily, an increase of 1AP to dimension shift will moderate it, and give the theme room to get other stuff. Imp Vixen I think the idea of a champ that starts out weeny but has the potential to grow big is fine, as long as it requires active attacking to do so, and soulharvester is a really fun ability, especially in imps where you can get unexpected kills. The problem here is that a weeny champ (that is a big target) that needs to engage in melee will die before it gets a chance to grow. The other problem is that soul siphon is over costed, which makes her too expensive. Increasing the range to 1-2 will make it easier to attack without getting killed. Soul Siphon moved to upgrade path 2 and leech vitality moved to base will allow for a cheaper build with soulharvest 1, charm 1 for around 77 Nora (I think, I really need to find out the costs for range increase). I'm fairly sure that soul siphon will get a Nora decrease soon, so that build will become viable. Imp Vixen- [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 1 DEF | 38 HP] Path 1 = charm 1 | charm 2 | charm 3 Path 2 = soul siphon | soulharvest 1 Base = Attack: psychic | Flight | Leech Vitality | mischief Hekatian Arbiter I honestly can't see anything wrong with her design, the problem is that counter attack range isn't worth 14 Nora - which is the same price as arrow eater. With it being a double edged sword due to various sorts of deflection, and especially rightous deflection, I probably wouldn't pay more than 7 for it. I think I'll just ask for a recost of the ability, or failing that a manual adjustment of -7 Nora. She would then be at 83 nora for an implaing strike + bloodlust build. Lava Trap. This relic is easily the worst trap, and has been so crappy since release that i never even considered it for a buff. Old: This relic is deployed stealthed. When an enemy champion moves within 2 spaces of the trap, the relic is destroyed and enemy champions within range take 8 Fire damage and become Charred 3. This damage ignores DEF. The location of the relic becomes lava for 5 turns. New: This relic is deployed stealthed. When an enemy champion moves within 2 spaces of the trap, the relic is destroyed and enemy champions within range take 8 Fire damage and become Charred 3. This damage ignores DEF. Two squares surrounding the relic becomes deep (impeding) lava for 5 turns. Might be able to set up some damage as careless enemies walk through the lava, or use it to protect something, or trap an enemy. Demonshield (nerf) Cost from 25 to 35 30. List of other candidates: Deepelf Monk Prince Malander Stiched First Greater Pitspawn Captive Lorekeeper Deep Leviathan Magma Elemental (flavour change) Stiched Tyrant (nerf) Nefari Messenger Firemaw Spinner's Greaves Phase Spider Mindstorm Grundlewolf alpha Deepelf temptress screaming imp pitdragon (nerf) DE Summoner (nerf) DE Priestess (nerf) Sheoul firebow Maxxarek
Personally would like to see Hekatian arbiters range go down a little, does she really need counter attack range? Maybe take it off and add something a little more blood theme related like blood fueled or blood knowledge. As for Bloodguard, I don't care for pet: imp. as for 8, I vote for firemaw to get changed in some shape or form to be more fun. OR angel or pain back to magical attack.
Ye definitally @ bloodguard/ arbiter , blood theme has never really shined competitively , always been overpriced and average ..... i personally would enjoy playing it , other then some price changes....the theme it self needs some cool spells and tricks, maybe even new blood related abilites Ps i don;t know how you could possible make captive lore runnable...but consider giving him these cool new bleed abilites you will force gedden to create
The problem with bloodguard is that pet is such an expensive ability that it makes it hard for her to perform a decent role in a bleed deck without costing a prohibitive amount of Nora. The ideal solution would probably be to rename her and make it so she isn't a bleed champ at all, but an otherwise fairly ordinary champ defined by the pet ability (like the boghopper huntmaster) - with bleed/blood dispersal ability set transfered to another champ. Might work well on the book mistress hmmmm....
Servile brute is that he too much like Warogg i would prefer to use the current nerfed warogg as he has the additional physical resistance which make him much harder to kill I like the idea of putting demonbound and surge demon so i'm guessing you will be replacing berseker with tough ranks? Edit -Also can we change immune psychic to immune physical? i would like to see one UD rune with immune physical since it the only faction that is not capable to get it
Id really like to see more defile/ antiheal /and cc in ud. Would be nice since we lost most of our range and could use other ways to pressure opponents. I'll think on some good suggestions
I'd like to see Nerfari Soul Torch's ability go back to fire dmg instead of LoL, but that would probably be OP
I can't recall the specifics, but there was some nasty combo with X Bound awhile back which resulted in Servile Brute and Forest Giant having it removed. Somehow Forest Giant got it back in the revamp and Brute (who was the one it was actually used with) seems poised to. Does anyone remember how the combo worked specifically and if it is or is not still possible? It may no longer be if certain spells or abilities were changes. It was related to allowing the opponent to possess the unit...
There was always the thing where you put a champ who is immune to its damage next to a bound champ (without the binding race out) and when it's their turn it becomes possessed but engaged (so can't move) and since it is their champ it can't be attacked. There might have been a spell combo working on the same idea.
at the risk of sucking up way too much, I would like to say that I think badg you have done a great job as council member, calls have been really good, you nerfed what needed to be nerfed and not waht a lot of the others have done (plus buffed sheoul magus). that said, I think bloodguard should lose the imp rather than lose bleed, bleed needs the buff. In general bleeds just needs more options, the portal walker is a decent addition but there are so many other interactions that could be made with the blood balls, however this will involve coding that we probably won't get. for my vote sorting out the deep elf monk, used to love that guy. what is making him so expensive? He can't lose the crazy multi attack/pummel combo because that's what made him good, what about defenceless? he should be easily hurt as he is essentially naked with only his fists, make him a one rounder that gets punished if he fails? keep up the good work.
I think the combo was bane shift, where the demonbound dude would become possessed then transfer it to the nearest opposing champion permanently (unless cleansed). Also, I am really opposed to a blood guard buff. These things are incredibly difficult to get and pet champs are very difficult to balance.
Following on from my previous post, this is what I was thinking for bloodguard and book mistress. It's basically separating the bleed stuff from the blood guard and making it the focus of the mistress. Hekatian Redguard - [10 DMG | 6 SPD | 1 RNG | 1 DEF | 45 HP] Path 1 = Drive | Invigorate 1 Path 2 = Drain 1 | Drain 2 Base = Attack: Magical | Flight | Pet: Screaming Imp I haven't worked out exactly how to cost the stat increases but I think we're looking at about 85 nora. Book Mistress - [12 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-2 RNG | 1 DEF | 46 HP] Path 1 = Charm 1 | Charm 2 | Charm 3 Path 2 = Bloodtracker | Blood Knowledge Base = Attack: Magical | Bleed | Flight | Blood dispersal Cost - 76 nora This is basically Intrepidus' suggestion for the bloodguard but applied to the mistress. An interesting interaction is blood knowledge increasing the damage and ap to allow dispersal to work better. This is a pretty extensive rework so I'm not sure gedden would go for it, but would like to get some reactions.
Thanks for the compliment, its been a learning process for me, and some of the early changes were a little off, but I think I'm getting better. That said, re-designs are more open to being unexpectadly imbalanced, so I'm trying to keep this to the minimum. Regarding bleed, it has always had the problem that the champs were all exo or higher, which made it probably the least accessible deck in the game. I am hoping that substituting bloodguard (one of the most expensive runes) with bok mistress (a common) will continue the trend to lower rarity - blood magic is also on ritualist (uncommon) and seeker of blood (rare) has been made UD. Regarding the name change, I'm not really too fussed, just thought it would make it clearer that it isn't a bleed champ.
Proposed mistress doesn't have bloodseeker - or did you mean on the mino? I don't really like it on him either, I see it as a demon ability, but not sure it's a big deal. As to def strike, b.guard is still one range so it wouldn't be great. I guess I kept drain in that upgrade slot because I'm scared she'll go back to her meta-tastic pre-revamp self.
I'll take another shot at promoting my rework for Phase Spider (see sig for link), basically my beef is that since the nerf to corporeal form I haven't been able to attack with him once. Besides that I'd like to see Flameweb Spider do something more interesting. Right now he's basically a tank (3 DEF + Damage Shield + Demon Shield) but his art/flavor doesn't scream "tank" to me. I think that he's a good place to augment the Web subtheme, maybe something along the lines of passively dealing fire damage to nearby ensnared champs. As for Imp Vixen I'd like to see her lose a little bit of her utility and get 1-3 range back.
