Phylactery bug? Or WAI? Or just order of operations?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Cinder405, Nov 30, 2016.

  1. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    So during my lunch I was enjoying a match against an opponent playing FW. He was running an Eternal Lich and I managed to bring it down to 8 HP.

    I noticed he positioned the Eternal Lich close enough to his Phylactery ( Not intentionally of course) that I could cast my Nature's Wrath and hit both the Eternal Lich and the Phylactery.

    So I think I'm making a great play by destroying both units with an AOE spell but to my surprise the Eternal Lich still reanimated.

    So my first question is

    Is there an order of operations of how units are destroyed if both units reach 0 or negative HP?

    Was this a bug?


    I ultimately won the match but If there is prioritization on what units pop first that would be something I didn't know about.

    Thanks
     
  2. JazzMan1221

    JazzMan1221 Better-Known Member

    You know how the animation for Nature's Wrath is a magical green vine that twists and turns around its targets? Well, whichever target the vine hits first is the target that dies first. Subsequent targets follow the same pattern; the next one to be hit by the vine will be the next one to die, and so on.
     
    Tweek516 likes this.
  3. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    I thought this at first too but then I was like naaaaaay it's just an animation.
     
  4. OriginalG1

    OriginalG1 I need me some PIE!

    off topic. have you ever seen dream crusher vs Phylacteries. lol. (crys)


    AoE spells might prioritize champs over relics. or just pox things. probably worth doing some testing.
     
  5. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    I can't test ATM but I can try testing it with a guild mate tomorrow during my lunch.
     
    Etherielin, Qucas and OriginalG1 like this.
  6. GoldTiger

    GoldTiger I need me some PIE!

    Not a KF player myself so don't know the mechanics of natures wrath but from my experience operations like that start at bottom right and then rotate clockwise e.g. Reverberating Blast

    Perhaps give the game manual a look through for a specific natures wrath mechanic. Any KF mains know what's know what's up?
     
  7. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    Tomorrow I will be trying to test with thorn collection since the animation looks like it damages everything at once.
     
  8. IronStylus

    IronStylus I need me some PIE!

    Uhh tried to aoe vampires once. dropped a 3 spell bomb with dots on champions and thier bloodcrest. not sure it worked as intended but all died :)
     
  9. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    It's entirely an order of operations thing
     
  10. Karamasov

    Karamasov Lord of SL & Master of Challenges

    If you are testing, look for deployment order. First deployed normally means first to affect and be affected.
     
  11. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    I'll take note of that
     
  12. IronStylus

    IronStylus I need me some PIE!

    Literally screw deployment order. who the hell can remember this while playing? Aoes should affect everything at once. also add indicator on knockbacks, manic, pull and mark closest enemy if u wanna cast retribution. is this a strategy game or coding one? where is the outplay if its too complicated to think of the outcome of a move?
     
  13. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    It can't hit everything at once, there has to be an order. Deployment order is as good as any IMO.
     
  14. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    See document 1.3, section 3.1.2 on Sequencing -- it answers your question. https://verumvenari.wordpress.com/complete-arcane-rules/

    In brief, it is handled in deployment order, as some have mentioned here: because the E. Lich comes into play prior to the phylactery that it summons, it will die first to an AoE, trigger its death effect, and remove the phylactery from the set of targets. Therefore, the E. Lich will respawn inside the AoE without taking damage. The same rule should apply to all champions with Pets and anything else that they summon when coming into play -- real champ has earlier deploy stamp. For future questions, remember that the rule docs are there! They aren't absolutely complete, but this sort of thing is actually solved, public information.

    I would generally recommend that every player who wants to take the game with any sort of seriousness read the Primer, at least, or ensure that they know all the mechanics that it explains: https://verumvenari.wordpress.com/pox-rules-primer/ . It would answer your question as well, although with less precision.
     
  15. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Like Tweek says, this is actually impossible. Deployment order just happens to be how things are naturally entered into the game's array, so that's what the game uses.
     
    Etherielin likes this.
  16. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    It's an issue in how it was coded. It would have been possible to do initially, but changing to do it now probably wouldn't work.

    It would look something like this:
    All steps are still done in deployment order
    1 Assign damage to each target.
    2 Determine if anything takes enough damage to die.
    3 Add on death effects to the on death stack.
    4 Remove all dead units from play.
    5 Process on death stack, skipping anything that was removed from play in step 4.
    6 Process remaining effects from the AoE (knockback, DoT, etc)
    7 If additional damage occurs (knockback), repeat steps 1-5 for that damage.
     
  17. Capitulator

    Capitulator I need me some PIE!

    Actually that would wholesale ignore all on-death effects (e.g. death novas). The core issue is that the traversal of the graph of effects is depth-first rather than the more intuitive breadth-first and that there are two causes of death for one unit at different depths. So given a graph starting from the spell with two chains of child effects:

    1. Spell damage -> l ich HP below zero -> lich dies -> phylactory procs -> phylactory dies + lich lives
    2. Spell damage -> phylactory HP below zero -> phylactory dies

    There are two causes of phylactory dying, in (1) it is at depth 5, and in (2) it is at depth 3. Intuitively we expect a lower depth effect to be the one to fire, but Pox will do depth first i.e. right to the end of (1) before starting work on (2).

    So what would have to be done is to move to a queue of effects instead of a stack. The trouble is that they will have just used the program stack to handle all this which is quick and easy to program but makes changing this would a big job.

    graph.png
     
    Karamasov likes this.
  18. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    How would all on death effects be ignored? They're handled in step 5.
     
  19. Capitulator

    Capitulator I need me some PIE!

    A dead unit gets removed in step 4. Step 5 skips effects from removed units.
     
  20. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    The on death effects are added to the stack to process before they are removed. Phylactery Bound is on the Eternal Lich, not the Phylactery, so it would trigger. Because the phylactery is already removed from play, the ability would fizzle as there is no phylactery to respawn from. Effects such as death nova would take effect, it would just happen after the unit is removed from the board.
     

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