Pox Nora 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by zenadel, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I have too many existing obligations, but maybe someday :)
     
  2. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    TBH. While I do agree the game would feel a lot different if the Battle Group sizes were reduced I also feel it would if some design decisions were changed. Like how people compare core pox to what it has become today. I think a consequence of diversity and needing new content created abilities that were situationally very powerful but most times meh like flameburst, in addition to a gradual increase in damage across the board led to the current situation where one rounding is king and while positioning matters a lot. It is very easy especially in the early game when overall resources are l0w to gimp the other player by spending a massive amount of resources to kill one champ etc and essentially end games by creating a massive positional advantage by sacrificing resources. Pox's core systems reinforce this to because when you gimp the opponent generally it means you gained the font so +12 nora + positional advantage and the nora globe of the champ whomst you killed which is like roughly 11 ish being most champs are 65-75. So essentially if you decide to gimp now with the proliferation of situationally powerful abilities like flameburst the capping mechanics of fonts and the nora received from death of a unit the game rewards you 22 ish nora + positional value from gimping the opponents champs in low resource environments which tbh is not that hard IE why that ST/SP split dominated the meta for so long. I think people would enjoy the game more and matches would feel less swingy and more tactical if damage was reduced across the board so that gimping was harder like in "core pox" or the game systems like capping or nora on death were changed to not reward gimping/one rounding so much.

    TLDR one rounding is for obvious reasons stupidly powerful in this game and the game systems reward that especially in the early game by font capping mechanics and nora globes. I think the game would feel a lot different if damage across the board was reduced like in core pox or/and the fundamental components of the game such as font capping were changed to be less advantageous to a player who decides to gimp because it would increase tactical play and diversity of strategy.
     
  3. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    I think that fast games are good. If I play 1h game and win then sure I'm soo happy, but when I loose then I want to kick PC out of window.
    In fast games this feelings are much less hardcore. Smaller maps, more combos, faster gameplay is more appealing for me than looong 1h wars.
    World is changeing so peaple live faster and faster and don't have that much time for games.
     
    Fentum likes this.
  4. badgerale

    badgerale Warchief of Wrath

    Way back in the dark ages I remember playing a game which I forget the name of - 'robot' something.

    It was turn based, and had a strong overwatch mechanic (like xcom overwatch), and involved setting up fire traps for the other players guys to walk into. It was really good tactically as you'd have to really think what the opponent would do, which direction he'd come from, and set up your firing arcs - and of course he'd try to do things you weren't expecting.

    I've always thought that a new game based on that would be cool - you use your turn not just to do things but to program things to happen on your opponents turn.

    We have a bit of it in Pox with hidden spells, and they are some of the most fun spells for me.
     
  5. EnigmaXIII

    EnigmaXIII I need me some PIE!

    Hello everyone :) I think we all have fantasies about this game, myself included, but first we need to think about why poxnora has died (and dont pretend it hasn't) and how a new game could avoid that outcome. I personally haven't played since the massive rework to the client, because the game started not running well and feeling clunky, not to mention the petty player base.

    Here is my opinion about why pox has not survived:
    We can all attest that the number 1 reason the game has died is the player base. I've heard a bunch of BS a few years ago about how a TCG like this one, by its very nature, is unable to retain a lot of players (and I'm pretty sure I've seen the devs say this). I'm happy to say that with the rise of TCG's and games like Hearthstone and Duelyst (while they are nothing compared to pox), we can debunk this myth.

    Here is why I think this game fails:


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    1. Complexity:
    I am not talking about technically complex or anything like that. I'm talking about the tedious kind of complexity that doesn't add much to the game. Specifically, the math of certain actions is unpredictable or can't be computed by the average joe in a timely manner. Why can't all rune costs be rounded to the nearest 5 so it is easier to keep track of? Why not remove the defense stat so people have less to keep track of and can compute damage more easily? What about percent modifiers like amplify, which are not only hard to compute, but also unpredictable. Sometimes, we round up, other times, we round down. This makes the game tedious.

    I would also argue that runes having different upgrades, and lots of abilities with varying ranks, makes it difficult to know what your playing with without constantly analyzing every rune that gets played. I really think abilities should only have one rank, and upgrades, and champ leveling in general, should be removed. This would make it easy to tell what your facing just by looking at unique icons.

    I acknowledge that reduction in complexity comes at a cost, but I think the payoff is worth it, and it could encourage more creativity.

    2. Rune trading:
    I know Pox is a TCG and not a CCG. And at times, I admire the idea of having to interact with players and work to get runes. However, pox makes it very difficult to get the things you want. One of the reason is the lack of neutral runes that belong to all factions. It makes it much more difficult to get what you want, since you may open many packs and not even get something you could use in your favorite faction. Also, forging new cards should have better rates. I really think it should be something like three cards of a lower tier to get to the next tier. Lastly, I think having something like poxbox native to the poxnora client would be ideal. When I did play, I could never get a deck up and running if poxbox was patching or down or something.

    3. Design/Bugs:
    Of the points I listed above, I think this is the least relevant. While the game is not perfect, I think the devs did a fine job of developing and patching the game. The bugs here are the bigger issue, despite many balance issues. I think this can be greatly improve when creating a new client from the ground up. One huge design point is the dissonance between the desktop client and the website. We should be able to access everything directly from either one or both of these platforms, not have half of the elements in one and the rest in the other.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is what I want to see:

    Firstly, I would like to see pox 2, not pox 1 upgraded/re-released. My pitch lorewise is to make so that that the magic of nora disappears from the land for thousands of years, then, people come around who are able to manipulate nora to summon ancient and forgotten heroes and use it to attain power/wealth/fame and wage war against each other. I've pitched this before, but I would call it Noramancers, and the players would be these nora manipulators who summon forgotten champions (essentially the same champs we have now, or something similar).

    In terms of design, I would make it so that the client has everything (lol it feels funny having to state this), including whatever trading, crafting, and messaging we decide on.

    In terms of gameplay, I think we should first abandon the square layout and use a hexagon layout. This makes the definition of 1 space less confusing (i.e. does a square diagonal from your current position count as 1 space away) and it also helps balance melee and ranged units, since more melee units can engage (this is a problem that not many have recognized, but I believe is present in pox). I would also get rid of the defense stat, and just make tankier units have more health (less stats to memorized and easier calculations). I would round nora costs and generation to the nearest 5, to make it easier to track. I would do something similar for nora globes (most units drop 5 nora, perhaps make heroes drop 10, etc.).

    I have a bunch of other ideas, but I doubt anyone actually cares lol, and I've already said enough.


    Thanks :) Bye.
     
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Lots of interesting stuff to respond to, @EnigmaXIII, great post!

    First I want to respond to this:
    The argument was never "TCGs can't be popular." This would be an insane statement.

    What I have said before is that the specific combination of complexity, deck building and tactical gameplay of Pox makes it much less accessible than games that are just card games like Hearthstone or Magic the Gathering.

    In fact, the success of Hearthstone and Duelyst etc. actually support this idea, as they both do not have the same features that make Pox much less accessible. Hearthstone is MTG-lite, and that reduction in complexity plays a role in expanding the accessibility of the product. Duelyst has a board, but is nowhere near PoxNora in terms of the tactical complexity nor card complexity.

    I mean, any multiplayer game needs players to survive, but WHY players aren't around is the real question.

    In Pox's case, keep in mind that Pox has survived for a long time and had a healthy population for most of its life. But even when it was at its peak, it had limited/niche popularity for various reasons.
     
  7. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 I need me some PIE!

    derp the devs took all the social features out of the new client, thats where you lost your playerbase. if /who is anything to go by then 10 players total online now in peak times is normal. old client in its last days had 100 on.

    if you cant interact wit players and friends and easily see who is online you will lose players... dog took the mmo out of the game.
     
  8. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    While compared to MTG it is still relatively cheap, relative to today's F2P games, Pox does cost a lot more to get what you want.

    That said, Pox has made significant moves to increase rune accessibility to little effect over the years, likely due to several factors:
    • The core gameplay is still not very accessible, so making cards easier to get doesn't matter as much
    • It wasn't enough
    Other factors to consider:
    • most modern card games do not have trading at all, by cutting out this interaction, cards can be made easier to get for individual players by eliminating the variance that some players achieve (and then is able to distribute)
    • most card games also restrict the card pool, part of the reason why Pox is so expensive is because the pool is constantly expanding
     
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This isn't really true. The game was well on the decline by the time the new client launched. The new client didn't help, but the game wasn't doing well even before. Also keep in the mind the old client didn't actually clear the "online" count properly unless the servers got restarted, so most of those players were afk single player players who weren't actually there.

    Of course, having broken chat etc. is obviously a bad thing, there's no denying that.
     
  10. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Hex vs Square is always an interesting discussion but ultimately you just trade one set of problems for a different set.
     
  11. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    For all those referring to more face paced or simpler TBS games have ya'll seen what happened to Duelyst and closer to home Conquest of Champions? Duelyst is arguably dying or at least not in great shape and CC is no longer around. Both played with the idea of a simpler more fast paced turn based strategy and both ultimately still struggle to retain a profitable player-base. I'm genuily interested in discussing what went wrong. Especially in CC case because it was created as a pox clone designed to hit the more fast pace simpler tabletop market like what some argue would make Pox more approachable and still failed.
     
  12. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Duelyst is really just a card game with more "slots" for where to deploy units. The units themselves don't have a ton of interactivity and rarely live beyond a couple turns. I don't think it's a viable comparison.

    Conquest never made it out of beta largely because the internal metrics didn't meet the investor expectations (and thus never advertised really) and pushed for the "Clash Royale" type model where cards could level up via merging with other cards which impacted the gameplay in undesirable ways. That's not to say that stuff can't be done properly, but there was quite a bit of back and forth with that and trying to make it worth within a strategy game framework (many people who played in during beta was very much against the leveling). Others didn't like the maps having lack of interactivity, some didn't like the art style/UI being very "mobile," etc.

    In reality tho it was honestly not much different than early Pox was in many ways, except with avatars and "mini-shrines" instead of just one big shrines - even down to the fact that new factions were released very early on. If people really wanted a direct sequel, CoC was really it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018
    Woffleet likes this.
  13. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    Oh now I remember this game Conquest of Champions. I played at the times where it wasn't at steam and was free to play. I had fun and enjoyed a lot.
    But I quit for some reason that really don't remember. I liked game mode when you don't give a Bane Shift about time and can play whenever you want.
    You could even rewind your moves. As I think of it option that can back your move is something to consider.
    I beg you DO NOT remove customization of units. It is necessary, because you can make less units and use them in different ways. Players can make their own decisions. But I too think that abilities should have just one rank like LEAP or all of this REND, POISON etc. stuff.
     
  14. EnigmaXIII

    EnigmaXIII I need me some PIE!

    @Sokolov I do not disagree with any of your points. I understand your need to defend your perspective, but I really hope you are getting what I am saying here. It is not that these games are the same as pox, and yes they are less complex. My whole point is that we need to find a balance of complexity that sustains a playerbase AND creates a unique game. I would argue that some aspects of complexity have a lower rate of return than others. For example, champions having active abilities (unlike duelyst) makes things slightly more complex, sure, but the amount of possibility it adds, the amount of identity it provides for the champs, and the feeling of interactivity it creates is well worth it. Percentage damage amplification, on the other hand, makes calculations more daunting and time consuming for players, and leads to a lot of blunders, or for players giving up on making calculated decisions, and does not add much to the game at all.

    I really think you should stop trying to defend what Poxnora is, and start thinking about what it could be. You did a good job with this game, we get it, and I dont disagree. The whole point is to get over that and consider what else can be done. I don't know if my suggestions are the best, and they probably aren't, but I do think the main argument that I bring up is relevant. I really think the backlash to these suggestions comes from the fact that you all love Poxnora, but keep in mind were not talking about THIS poxnora. I do not want to see you revamp THIS version of the game. I want you to make a whole NEW game, and that means abandoning some of what makes Poxnora what it is today.

    Mic drop
     
  15. Woffleet

    Woffleet I need me some PIE!

    I think this is a very valid point. People like pox because it is complex. Pox 2.0 therefore needs to be a complex game that improves where Pox 1.0 failed ultimately created something new and better. However it is a balancing act between complexity and player population. @Phynixe and @calisk suggested adding a side board to add another layer of strategic depth. @Sokolov suggested reducing deck sizes, perhaps considering changing timer to an initiative based system, splitting movement and AP, and reducing Map sizes to increase game speed. @EnigmaXIII suggested removing champion upgrades and ability ranks as a consolidation method and to reduce unnecessary complexity. I suggested considering balance and design to bring the game away from the damage scaling which ultimately led to this one round meta. I think the idea of splitting nora and deployment from fonts as described in the Cactuar Crate is another good idea to help shift the design of the game. However none of these are really that fundamentally different from what Pox already is or has been at some point in its past. I think a combination of these would make the game feel very different but the core model would still be there. If you're really aiming for a completely different and better experience that builds upon what was good in pox then what do you change to seriously bring the game in a positive direction?

    edit: Sorry if i missed anyone's ideas I thought I captured most of them in this response.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  16. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Well to be frank the redesign i'd have in mind if I was making it now would be condensing the pox experience down to main highlight of game play, the font battle.

    As things are now we fight a series of font battles to decide a game and their are lulls and build up that occurs prior to the font battle which really builds up tension for the person making the first move. At it's heart this is the part of pox most of us love, that build up to a massive battle, and the fall out after it starts, or the decisive eb and flow of a font battle from the start of the game.

    so in my concept the game wouldn't be decided by killing a shrine, it would likely be decided by controlling all the fonts at the end of your opponents turn(or killing all of his units and controlling all the fonts on your turn), the game would be scaled down to play in much more refined map sizes, 4x7, 7x7, and other more complex map lay outs.

    i'd let players place their control font, and adjust side boards etc, but the battle would be close and fast, but would retain all the strategic complexity that exists in a pox font battle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This topic is literally what this thread is about, and what I have been talking about here.

    In fact, my preferred approach is SPINOFF as I described, because I believe that the current deckbuilding + tactics gameplay + complexity really does limit the accessibility of the product significantly.

    I also even made a list of things I would absolutely consider changing even if it was a DIRECT SEQUEL.

    So I honestly don't understand what you are trying to say here: How can you be reading my posts here and suggest that I am not thinking about what Pox could be?

    ~

    Another thing to keep in mind, generally speaking, is that in this conversation I am really just another player at this point. I have no leverage to make Pox 2 anymore than you guys do. Obviously if it does happen it's likely DOG will tap me for a lead design role, but that's not my decision.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  18. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Ironically, this may have been a factor in why it didn't succeed. I remember people complaining about not being able to find "real" games because most people played the correspondence way.
     
  19. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    All the initial posturing just eats up time and usually doesn't amount to anything.

    I suspect a "control all fonts" approach would necessitate splitting off nora generation. Ideally tho, some mechanicisms would exist, such as nora generation needs to escalate to force a hard end point so that we don't get 15 minute stompfests as well as 60 minute stall fests. It would also bring back a staple of TCGs where resource generation rate tends to increase over time and thereby altering the power level of builds over the course of a game.
     
  20. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Oh yea, this is another great point here. Killing a champion is a good thing, and the game REALLY rewards you for it significantly beyond just removing that board presence. It's why AP generation and damage spells have always been hard to dethrone. But ultimately, this is less of a Pox problem and more of a general problem with head to head type games, still, Pox has features that makes the problem worse, not better.
     

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