Pox Nora 2

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by zenadel, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. Phynixe

    Phynixe I need me some PIE!

    Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about. I believe it was actually called "Tactics Online Arena". It was relatively similar to Poxnora. Of course, I might be wrong as to the reference.
    Cinder405 and Sokolov like this.
  2. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Well i remember now that you could configure your list in various ways and each unit had it's advantages and anyone who paid for premium units was unnbeatable.

    I remember having casters that would decimate anything they could attack but were made of wet tissue paper.

    That's about all i remember lol
  3. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    One of the reasons I got into Poxnora was it reminded me a lot of a Star Wars table top miniature game that I used to play made by Wizards of the Coast. It has it's own complexities and balance issues and like early Poxnora it had a healthy dose of RNG because dice rolls determined if things hit or missed. Cards were pretty similar to pox cards too.
    118473.jpg 132418.jpg 118472.jpg

    One thing I have always liked more about SW Minis over Pox was how they handled deck construction and keeping games short. Deck values were predetermined (usually 100 or 150 points) and you could build your deck however you wanted so long as all of your cards values were under the threshold. There were two primary game types that that determined how the game was played. Standard and Leaders. In Standard you played until one player had all of his units destroyed. In Leaders both players could designate any one of their units as their leader and you could win by destroying your opponents leader.

    Assuming both players knew what they were doing and there were no arguments about rules games were usually over in 10-15 minutes tops.
  4. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Hero clix is actually alot like sw minis and in turn much like pox.

    That game is still going but man....the rules are absurd for that one
  5. Varthas

    Varthas I need me some PIE!

    1 vs 1 FF only. The game had a much better feel to it with 15 rune decks and ff. Much better.

    Pox totaly got it wrong with 2 vs 2 and splits. The game and community was good before that stage, then the game became to complex and to divided between 2 vs 2 juice and 1 vs 1 pizza splits. If those resources who went to splits and 2 vs 2 had gone to polish the game and future content it would have been much better for the long term, imo.
  6. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    Well i've never had an issue with 30 runes though 2 vs 2 seemed like a novelty at best that said that was during the era before soe when improvements and new features were being added thus why pox was at it's best.

    After SOE the game had good expansions and i teresting runes but was stagnant from a features point of view
  7. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Runedock was 15 at one point? I don't remember that. At the very least it was 20 by the time faction bonuses were added, since the split versions of the bonuses would make no sense if the runedock wasn't an even number of runes.


    As for splits, the game actually had NO factions on release - factions bonuses were added later (splits and FF bonuses). Players were concerned about the lack of variety (keeping in mind, for example, that there were ONLY 8 dwarves on release and a whole 28 runes in "Ironfist Stronghold"), so forcing only FF would have severely limited options and made many decks basically the same (you'd be playing 20 out of the 28 runes in IS, for example). Thus, even when factions were created, along with their bonuses, you were still allowed to play non-FF decks.

    In fact, early on you could actually play full "circus" no bonus, half bonus (like ST/X, say, 10 ST runes and 10 runes from the other 7 factions), 2 splits (10 ST runes and 10 FS runes) and full faction bonus. Circus was eventually phased out as more runes were released and eventually wouldn't have worked well with the Drums of War feature introduced.

    So I don't know what you mean by "the game and community was good before that stage" since factions and splits were created at the same time.


    Either way, adding bonuses actually added work, rather than splits adding work.

    And 2v2 was something that got kind of hacked in and was never really supported after that (most 2v2 bugs/issues were never fixed, and balance certainly never cared about 2v2).

    Now, I understand the desire for FF battles. But you have to understand the context under which factions (and splits) were created, and that splits wasn't something added later. And that basically, very few resources were really diverted to make splits or 2v2 happen.

    In the case of factions (which is what resulted in having split bonuses), actually making factions themselves was actually a fairly large effort, as it touched every rune in the database, had UI considerations, as well as affected the matchmaking and deckbuilder, etc. And at the same time, it's arguable whether the runepool was big enough at the time to support only full faction.

    Of course, with regards to Pox 2, if you wanted to build a game with factions in mind and full faction only, that's certainly a valid direction, but you would probably want to limit the number of factions to something like 3 or 4 to start.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  8. Excalibur95

    Excalibur95 I need me some PIE!

    sok i checked my old pox account still with old decks and sizes. my game history goes back to 2008 and the old decks are 20 runes, not 15 as the other poster stated.
  9. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Ah thanks for checking. I am not crazy then :D

    It's possible that it was 15 at some point in an earlier alpha/beta state that I didn't play? I don't know. But anyway, it's not a big deal and not super relevant to his desire for FF battles :D
  10. Varthas

    Varthas I need me some PIE!

    Right, 20 runes, i thought 15 when i wrote it was wrong but i still wrote it.

    Nice to have some information on resources because in my mind i thought splits and 2 vs 2 was a costly afair. And even though it maybe wasn`t, i still feel it was a costly afair to the game. This game(in my mind at the time) had longetivity going for it, but only as a FF game wich it would be worth to put in intelectual time in. When i started Pox late 2008 i really loved both the onboard action and the rune manager. It was great playing and also great preparing a deck just roaming the runes of the faction i played. First it was SP only and with this char FW only. I want to think that many players felt this was Pox`s forte. A solid board game and also deck building and factions with uniqeness.

    Although i want to narrow my thoughts further because as i remember the game was fairly competetive when it was FF - 20 rune decks, the top 100, even top 200 list was quite packed with good players, but after the splits and 2 vs 2 the games got more washed out, alot of the competetive pack went to training room playing splits and many went to the 2 vs 2 room, wich left it with less players at the 1 vs 1 FF games, if i remember right it was only FF in ranked initialy? Some people wanted a heads up with splits when splits would hit the ranked, wich left it with less players to compete with in ranked. I remember some disapointment during this time.

    This is how i remember it and i might be off because it is alot of years with alot of changes since splits and 2 vs 2 came.

    The game as split faction would always grew to big to really comprehend(for newcomer gamers especially), a newish player now face a almost impossible task. But with FF only even though the total number of runes could be somewhat the same a new player would have a better chance to get in the loop.
  11. Varthas

    Varthas I need me some PIE!

    Also, as a FF game Pox could have gone premium, and had a rolling league where the game could roll back to good old times for a period, but with splits and characters balanced after splits came, it is to difficult to roll the game back.

    I always thought Pox was going to end up as a game rolling back, to give new players a chance to catch up. And when splits came i realised that it wasn`t and as i wrote earlier there was some disapointment there.
  12. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    As far as I know, since the shattered peaks expansion, Pox has never had a full faction only rank ladder. Split faction were right there with full faction the whole time.
  13. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    There used to be ff filters so you could have the option to avoid splits
  14. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    This is correct. There is no "before splits."

    This is how it happened:
    1. No Factions
    2. Faction bonuses added (for having 10 runes of a faction and for having 20 runes of a faction) - it wasn't called FF or Splits then, it was just "hey, here's a bonus if you use a lot of the same stuff together"
      • This happened when each faction had around 30 runes each, and most players played circus (mix) or half split (ST/Mix), or full split (ST/FS) during this time because if you played FF you basically just ran the entire faction's runelist
    3. Circus was removed
    4. Half split (ST/Mix) was removed
    5. Rune dock made into 30 runes
    That said, Pox has seen more support for splits in later years, with Split Heroes being added in 2010 and themes designed with splits in mind in the Maljaran Block (which, incidentally, was Pox's best selling expansions, for various reasons).

    At the same time, FF decks has always been vastly more popular than splits. Here is a breakdown in 2008:
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  15. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    And here is some from 2009 when the runedock was expanded to 30) where you can see splits are less popular than they were in 2008 (when the runedock was still 20).

    In 2008, some factions, like IS, KF and SP were more popular in splits than in FF. In 2009 here, we see that that's not the case at all for ANY faction, every faction was more popular in FF play in 2009.

    This is a trend we have seen continue over time. As rune pools increased for each faction, players played FF more. This makes sense. When there are only 28 IS runes, you have limited options, but when there are 500 IS runes, you can probably make a much more versatile deck.

    All in all, "before FF" and "after splits" isn't really something that makes sense to say. They have always co-existed.

    In general, the game mechanically became more restricted, moving from no factions, to giving bonuses for playing with the same factions but allowing no factions still, to forcing at least 10/10 splits.



    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  16. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Re: Filter

    I don't precisely recall when and in what capacity the FF/Split filter was added.

    That said, I know a few things:
    1. Splits have become less popular over time
    2. It was probably removed sometime after Avatars (Mid 2009)
    3. Splits were a primary concern for the devs when Drums of War (Summer 2007) was being conceived: they wanted to know how many players played splits, how they should handle split contributions to the DOW ladders or if they should make DOW FF only
    4. Opt in features like these are typically used by only a small % of the playerbase, typically less than 10%:
      • in some cases, as with the King of the Hill game mode, even less (I think King of the Hill in Pox accounted for less than 0.1% of games)
      • in LoL, less than 0.5% of players ever even tried Dominion
    My speculation is that the filter existed around Drums of War (Summer 2007) to Path to Conquest (Summer 2008). If this is true, then my first data chart above, where KF, SP and IS were more popular split than in FF, was during the time of the filter. In other words, the data supports the idea that:
    1. Lots of people played splits then
    2. Many people probably didn't use the filter
    The 2009 datapoint also tells us something of interest regarding the filter, if it still existed, as it shows games vs FF and games vs Splits, etc.

    FS/X splits, for example, had ~3600 wins to ~3100 losses, of those 3600 wins, 2700 of them came against FF, and of the 3100 losses, 2330 came against FF - in other words, the vast majority of games (~75%) played by FS split players were against FF decks.


    Let's say, hypothetically, that the FF filter existed since Factions were added in 2006 (?) to 2009.

    If @Varthas, for example, used the Filter exclusively for at least a couple of years, and didn't play before factions existed, then it stands to reason why he would think that the game used to be FF only and splits were added later even if most people weren't playing with it on and half the games were actually people using splits - since he literally would have never faced a split til 2009.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2018
  17. calisk

    calisk I need me some PIE!

    anecdotal but during the time of the filter, I often flipped on the filter when some cheesy split deck was taking over the meta, as I know many other who did this meant playing a split deck would often result in playing against other split decks often using equally cheesy decks.

    but general opinion of split players back then is not like it is now, back then we actively thought split players were low skilled players using gimmicks to win games, and could only win with twice the runes as everyone else had available in FF.

    chat regularly insulted split players, giving them no respect when winning games and harping on them when they lost "how could you lose with a split".

    socially the game was considered a FF game, and splits were treated much like 2 vs 2 players, and could easily be ignored with the filter, also drums of war rewarded FF play, further pushing the FF momentum.

    maljara solidified a change in opinion that had been building for awhile giving some credibility to players using those decks, and in the current era i.e last 5 years i guess, drums of war has been a non factor
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  18. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    What about players (like me) that literally make only split decks? With things like that I think that players need to have options to choose.
    Deckbuilding can be focused with RACE/CLASS/DMG type etc. With this there are different strategies, and more players can find something interesting.
    So I think this is good for game. Quite same with 2x2 games. Personally I don't like and will not play it but there are players that just love that.
    If devs can do it then why not?
  19. zenadel

    zenadel The King of Potatoes

    I wonder what about deck limit and class system. Is limit of 2 runes good or more? I remember there was 3 too and I liked that. Is class system necessary?
    For what purpose? There are lots of classes that are not used like knight or bard (demigod? the hell is this??). What about races? Do U guys want just the same
    or different races? I'm thinking of something like oposite races: elves in KF and dark elves in UD/barbarians IS and humans FW so these units
    could have racial bonuses against their enemies or specific racial abilities. What about stats? I heard that some of you don't want DEF. I like that beacause
    all defence of units can be stored in their abilities. There could be defensive items, spells and relics of more importance.
  20. Sealer0

    Sealer0 I need me some PIE!

    Personally, I'm a sucker for complex games. I've played a lot of pox over the years and have a completely unreasonable and embarrasing number of hours clocked in Dota 2 and to a certain extent, league.

    While this is anecdotal info, I don't think it is wrong to assume that these kind of games cater to a particular kind of person - someone looking for a challenge, a certain level of complexity and competition, with a highly variable setting (playing against different decks could be compared to playing against a different set of heroes). Why is this important? Because identifying this might make the next effort more focused. For example, I don't believe that significantly reducing complexity would attract me to the game, as I've been a big fan of games that were often complex just for complexity's sake. There are plenty of games that can satisfy the "easy to get into" formula, but when it comes to keeping my interest for longer than a month, they fail.

    With that being said, poxnora is juggling so many mechanical balls that you could make a plethora of small spinoff games from some of its mechanics. The best examples are in unit and faction designs, for example the way moga function, the way terrain is utilized for stat bonuses and movement, the attrition warfare of (old?) Forsaken wastes. In many ways poxnora became too big and too varied for its own good.

    I think that has to do with a buisiness model which is rotten at its core. By creating a need for constantly pushing new content out, and as a result making the game more bloated and less accessible to newcomers, which gradually lowers the playerbase, which for a pretty much strictly multiplayer game is a death sentence. This is somewhat replicated by Duelyst and to a lesser extent Hearthstone.

    I am not sure about a solution to this particular problem, but I've been toying with the idea of a pay once for full content system. This would likely have to be backed by single player content that isn't garbage, though, which creates a whole new set of problems.

    All that being said, hats off to pox for outliving the vast majority of games in the industry. All games have a shell life and I am positively amazed with how long pox has managed to keep going, providing me and many others with hours of quality enterntainment.
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