PoxNora imProvement Projects #1

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sokolov, May 12, 2015.

  1. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    In general, DMR's posts have largely been "why does this cost so much." And I have been answering him this way generally. If that isn't what he means, he hasn't corrected me yet.

    But yea, units like Rascal Fairy are definitely prime candidates for adjustment. In this case, probably some form of ability streamlining, and 3-5 is probably unnecessary for a stealth harassing and could work just as well at 4-5, particularly since Knockout is 1-2.
     
    Sirius likes this.
  2. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Thanks for the clarification, I agree ,with this fairy ,it is a bit easier to trim and streamline while keeping the role. But we still need a solution for what if a champ needs to have lots of abilities and how to not make it cost 90+ as well as how to make a bland low ability champ not uber efficient in spite of its vanilla status

    P.s. I think your solution with things like weighty are the right track, in spite of people saying it's not a big enough drawback....but that might have to be ok imo
     
  3. yobanchi

    yobanchi I need me some PIE!

    For example this would be a good time to safely remove fester from dead fairy
     
  4. nynevening

    nynevening Member

    30hp... LOL
    i can kill that with two hits
    she needs some escape habilities with such low hp
     
  5. hfok

    hfok I need me some PIE!

    Sok, Why is 5 SPD champion not included?
    Beside KF, I don't often see 5 SPD base champion if at all.
     
  6. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Is there a systematic problem with 5 SPD champions that relates to this?
     
  7. avichaif

    avichaif Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Lich King can lose some defense for cost
    some of the doom's (with range) can lose some defense for cost too

    how u fix Elder Bloodbinder?
    why to give Scythe Whirl that cost 12 nora to champs with rng 1?

    I have a suggestion to add abilities that reduce cost to high nora range champs like:
    Vulnerability
    Liability
    Scorn
    Faithless
    does the problem of range champs cost is mostly in FW because of Boon of the Undead or it's in all functions?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2015
  8. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Moga Assault Team is beyond broken.

    Like holy Bane Shift it's got so much damage and hp and multi attack for 68 nora. The formula is so abused by strenght of body.
     
  9. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    It's really damn good, yeah, but it depends a lot upon initiation. If the Moga player gets to dictate the pace of the fight, particularly if they get to end a standoff on their own terms, MAT becomes strong as hell. If MAT takes the first hits though, it gets much weaker. Great dueling champ, though.
     
  10. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    even if you beat it down, it goes to 10 damage

    it's got 60hp with deflect and multi attack, even just tanking Bane Shift is worth it. For sub70 nora..
     
  11. hfok

    hfok I need me some PIE!

    5 base speed non-support runes seems less efficient especially for first depolyment. 5spd champions tend to be cheaper base value but in most case it will have a lot of ability tag on to make it not too cheap.

    EDIT:
    Some of which have so many ability that cannot even use it effectively due to the limit of of AP they generate while other suffer from really low damage or other stat.

    Darkmarsh Enforcer: 69N it has tons of mobility ability to compensate for 5spd, but as a result it has 7 dmg. Crushing charge was no needed in my opinion as there was already leap for it. Taking away crushing charge, however, will make it to 59N and that is probably too efficient for a tank.

    Edit 2:
    The point I am trying to say is, 5Spd champion tends to either be sandbagged champion or stat powerhouse but hard to find a balance in between. If said champion is a support or have supportive ability it normally is okay, but when you have it as meat or even beater it seems really rough to balance out or be efficient without breaking it
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
  12. kagebunshn

    kagebunshn I need me some PIE!

    KF runes I would like to see looked at.

    elven mage. Over 90 nora for 38 hp champ and he's sandbagged with iron will and mandatory melee abilities.

    Lower his base damage by 1 or 2, and reduce range to 4-6. The extra cost of that 3 range is essentially wasted because teleport gets him to ideal range regardless. If he disengages, then he had to spend at least 4ap anyways.


    Ospryan Valkyrie. Plz find a way to get him to 3-5 range. He is on a lot of people's list of favorite sprites. Many kf loyalists would like to see him be playable. 4-5 on 'roaming' champ makes him very awkward.

    Dragonbark Protector. Plz reexamine dragonbark and compare it to stasis. It is way overcosted.

    If you want him to remain useless for 4 turns, and still have bad stats, at least let the 'relic' be deployed as other relics (ie adjacent to champs or in fonts).
     
  13. avichaif

    avichaif Devotee of the Blood Owl

    The Thing 5 spd too
    can we give him 6 spd or change his Amphibious to Semi Aquatic?
    Mobilize Engine and Animate cost "0" need to cost at list -5 if not -10 and why we need 2 close abilities that make almost the same
    Silverclan Protector - Magic Beam to upgrades?
    Artillery Strike to cost less?
    does Tortun Shell gives Unstoppable?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
  14. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    Hah, it's like I knew way before where this thread was going!
     
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  15. st3ck

    st3ck I need me some PIE!

    Beh, Forget efficiency issues. Lets bring back combo/control BG's.
     
  16. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    [​IMG]

    Skywing Patrol has been in an awful state ever since revamp (and got even worse, I believe, with the recent recosting).

    It lost Sunder AND went up in price. And I haven't been able to figure out why it looks SO bad compared to similar champions. Yes, I get it, Drop Beacon is 15 nora, but even removing that ability and its price (which doesn't completely make sense due to the relic based synergy), it still looks crap for 72 nora.
    It either got a modifier in ADDITION to the Sunder removal and recosting, or that combination of stats and abilities happens to be in a bad spot (the same way Vindrax happens to fall in a sweet spot). Or maybe I don't realize how much of a cost bloat Reinforcement is.

    Now, I played this champion immediately post revamp. Aside from the awful price, it feels bad because it doesn't have an impact in combat. At least before, it could be the first one to hit in order to soften up enemies. Even a non-stackable -1 def would've been nice. In the meantime, Sunder has been separated into ranks, just for ranged units. It could receive Sunder 1; or Cripple (if I could, I'd make it have Illuminate, but that's because I'm crazy and want to play the Aurora theme with SL).

    In any case, please consider adressing this champion.
     
  17. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    It has no modifier.

    It pays 51 nora in base stats, (12 due to 2-4 RNG), and the rest is in abilities, 15 of which are in Drop Beacon.

    In general, now that units have to pay ACTUAL NORA COSTS for their pets and deployed abilities, people don't consider them efficient anymore despite the fact that the deployed/summoned units tend to be significantly cheaper than they would otherwise be if deployed on their own.
     
  18. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!


    I used to love it pre-revamp with Reinforcement, but if I had the option of giving that up for reduced cost, I'd take it. Also, removing Dragonflight (yeah, I know Dragonflight it supposed to be a big deal with Skywings) would drop the cost by another 8!! nora.

    If instead, the Reinforcement line were to be replaced with Cripple|Sunder 1|Illuminate (Illuminate because that and a Sandspout rework are all that's needed for my crazy KF/SL Aurora bg to be playable) and the dmg was raised to 9, I think the Patrol would be in a much better state. I'd give up the 1 base def, esp if it's gonna keep access to Relic Guardian. It can get the necessary def from Relic Guardian and it creates a nice gameplay tension between staying where it's safe or moving forward to increase threat range.


    So, the final form I'm talking about would look like this:

    Champion Stats:
    DMG: 9 | SPD: 6 | RNG: 2-4 | DEF: 0 | HP: 44

    Champion Abilities:
    -Attack: Gun;
    -Drop Beacon.

    Champion Upgrade Path I:
    -Cripple;
    -Sunder 1;
    -Illuminate (pretty please).

    Champion Upgrade Path II:
    -Relocate: Relic;
    -Relic Guardian.


    It would be 75 at its most expensive, 72 at its cheapest. The first upgrade line gives it the role of softener, the first to strike, especially useful vs high defense targets. SL has that already in the form of Scour. But Scour can only do so much. The other options for this are Draksar Morph (if you take Soften over Haste) or Slum Market (if you're desperate).
    Also, it would give SL one more good ranged unit. We have a few of these, but not too many.


    If this build is considered too cheap, there are plenty of ways to bloat it back up.


    EDIT: Also, I understand the point about units with pets/deployed abilities being perceived as not efficient anymore, but I've played the champion, I really wanted it to work and it doesn't. Reinforcement says "hurry up and join the combat", but with it's dmg stat that's not really something I'm desperate for.
    Furthermore, a lot of its stats are conditionally tied to abilities like Relic Guardian and Dragonflight; both of those require me to pay nora for something else afterward, in order to raise Patrol's stats. But at the same time, a cost of 83/87 is somewhat significant as a tempo hit and doesn't make it very easy to keep deploying stuff.
    Also, Drop Beacon is really good, no doubt, but offers the opponent time to get rid of it. It adds to the price of the champion, but it in itself is somewhat of a risk that may not pay off.

    To sum it up, Skywing Patrol is a very expensive champion that doesn't do much on its own and hopes to become better depending on what I deploy next (relic/champion) or to pay off via Drop Relic.

    Therefore, my suggestion is aimed at giving it something of its own to do and reducing some of the conditions attached to it having higher stats. Also, there's quite a lot of defense addition tied up inside his current abilities (Relic Guardian+ Dragonflight+ Base) and I really don't think all of that is needed.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  19. Fikule

    Fikule I need me some PIE!

    I'm pointing out the Undead Magister.

    https://poxbase.com/champion/876

    Dude is 87 Nora.

    8 Damage
    5 Speed
    3-4 Range
    0 Def
    35 HP

    All his upgrades focus on him building up and surviving and being in combat (with terrible starting stats).

    Then he has a 50 Nora Spell Blockade that pretty much says "Once you use this, your unit will die if it's anywhere near combat".

    He makes no sense. He either needs to be a spell blockade champ or... whatever else he needs to be. And if Spell Blockade requires him to cost almost 90 Nora, it might be worth admitting that it just shouldn't exist as an ability.
     
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  20. Pipster

    Pipster I need me some PIE!

    Just had a look at this. Completely agree, rune completely contradicts itself, but has so much potential.
     
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