This patch has now been enacted -- look for newer threads marked PCR for ongoing proposals. For those that don't know, I'm the UD representative on the PCR - a group of players who advise Gedden on balance changes - and every week (or so) we put together a small list (usually five issues) of suggestions for buffs, nerfs, bug fixes, and changes in general. As the next patch will be a little later this time, Gedden being busy with under the bonnet type work, I'd like to use the time to get the forum's views on some proposed changes I put together. If this goes well it would be good to make this a regular thing to get some direct community input in the changes made. Some things to remember: The focus at the moment is on nerfs, this is true across all factions, once we get the OP stuff sorted we can move on to the (more fun) buffing of underpowered runes. However, I like to include one buff per patch to keep things interesting. These are suggestions only, Gedden may not use them, and he might change them - either because he has his own ideas or because they are too time consuming to do, he's the designer after all. Keep it civil, I know you don't want your favourite rune nerfed, and I may well make mistakes (I have already) and please tell me that but don't go into nerd rage about it if I don't agree with you. Also bear in mind that there is no playtesting, and things that seem obvious when you've played the rune aren't always so clear when it's just a list of abilities on a computer screen. Ok. Here is what I'm thinking: Warogg (nerf): The problem here is the interaction between berserker and unstoppable – which means it gets all the berserker buffs without the AP loss from careless. I think remove unstoppable and increase the rank of enrage to 2 – should leave him 1 nora cheaper. Scorched Dwarf (nerf): As well as being a great nora miner and shrine repairer, his cheap cost allows him to double as a font capper. This is a too much for 28 nora. I'd like him to go back closer to the pre-revamp design which had lumbering. This was more flavourful (the art has him chained to something, and it makes sense that while he might be forced to mine nora for the nefari, he probably wouldn't be out capturing fonts for them) and was less flexible in it's use. Perhaps change the second upgrade path to nora miner 1 and 2 (miner 2 removed from base), add lumbering to base, and make up the cost difference in damage and hitpoint increases. A small cost raise wouldn't hurt either. Bok Raider (nerf): Yes, I know, I'm asking for a change to the same champ again - I'm sorry. I dropped the ball on the last patch and the changes didn't really do the job. This guy is the bane of my life so this time I want to make sure it gets a significant nerf. Basically, I'm thinking to reduce him to flamestrike 1 - this limits his ability to work as a pure range sniper (flamestrike 1 has only 3 range) and also differentiates him from nef dragon a bit more. Upgrade path 1 changed to flamestrike 1 and aerial supremacy (rather than 3 ranks of flame strike). Additional Nora cost of 7 added so that he ends up between 77 - 81. Maddening Echoes (nerf): This is a spell which, while not imbalanced exactly, is problematic in its effects. People run it twice, just for that moment where (due to carelessness or bad luck) a large group of enemies are in AoE 2. In favourable circumstances double echoes can win you the game in one moment as it takes out three or four enemy champs at once. While I like the idea behind the spell, it does leave a feeling of injustice when you lose to it -- double echoes is something people apologise for before doing it - which is probably a sign it should be changed. I propose making it less of a swing by reducing it's maximum damage and increasing its minimum. Currently it works like this: 1 (real) champ in target area = 4 damage, 2 champs = 7 damage, 3 champs = 12, 4 champs = 19, 5 champs = 28. Proposed new sequence (edited slightly): 5, 8, 13, 17, 23. This way the maximum damage of a double echoes is 46 – which isn't enough to kill most champions outright. I'm especially interested in what people think of this sequence -- would you still run it x2? Sheoul Magus (buff): This champ makes me sad. It was so cool and fun pre-revamp... now, its not much of anything. I really want it to get back the abuse charge/recharge mechanic, it was the only way he could make effective use of blood magic. The bleed theme is something I'm determined to make viable again, and this guy should be part of that. I'm not entirely sure how to go about this one, but I'm thinking along the lines of: Upgrade path 1 becomes: abuse charge 1, abuse charged 2, supercharged 1 Recharge added to base. --------- Thoughts?
Buff my bleed bg noobling, so I can get back to use my Korona again. Kthx. Edit: ok, trolling is not my thing, I regret not giving feedback. List looks good, although it irks me to see that Immortality + Sibbling combo.
How about changing Warrogg's first upgrade path to Berserker 1 and 2 instead of 2 and 3? Berserker + Unstoppable has been part of the game for ages (Rage Band), and is even one of the loading screen tips, so I'm not convinced it needs to be removed from him entirely, however, limiting it to rank 2 would drop him to a much more reasonable 7 spd with 14 dmg (after bonus), which seems reasonable to me.
I too would hate to see Warrogg lose his combo, I don't know many champs that have unstoppable and berserk combo so to rid it completely would be a waste. don't care much about bok. Nefari dragon ftw. dorf change seems cool to me, he'll make up for any cost he has. what if maddening echos' cost was related to how many champs was in the zone instead of dropping it's damage? I never use 2 because it seems like a waste of space due to no one really ever bunching up in my games. but might just be me. sheoul mag being runnable again? sweet. I've been waiting for this day!
Instead of Berserker + unstoppable, let him keep unstoppable, and just give the stat boosts. Berserker without the drawback is just +DAM, +SPD boosts anyway (perhaps Rage Band should also be changed to just say it gives stats, since giving Careless serves no purpose).
You Buffed Echos IMO...but other ppl won't notice.... i like it.. :3 ( no sarcasm i actually like it a lot)( yes id still run x2 maybe x3 now)
Note everyone defending warogg , it is op.... the way badgerale picked is one option.... option 2 would be removing Resist physical ( 50% resist 8 speed dmg 70 nora.....best!).... that should make him squishy all out , as designed Ill let you know on raider tommorow when i wake up and have more time to think
Warogg: Upgrade path 1: Berserker 1 and 2 Upgrade path 2: rez phis 1 and 2 Scorched Dwarf: If he gains lumbering, I'd like him to lose Demon Elf Bound and gain Demon Bond back. A little nora increase won't hurt. Bok Rainder: Diminishing Flamestrike to rank 1 seems a little too much, maybe just Flamestrike 2 and +5 nora. This is one of my favorite champs so I may be subjective. Maddening Echoes: I feel that the problem with this spell is the amount of CA champions UD has. Hurting your champions in order to kill enemies is flavorful for our faction but with CA you have no drawback. Positioning plays a big role in this game and if you play against UD I won't feel sorry for you if you leave all your dudes in a small AoE. But the way you want to nerf the spell doesn't upset me at all; I actually like the change. Sheoul Magus: Your changes seem fair enough.
For Raider, what about removing flamestrike and giving him +1 speed. That forces him to get into melee; limits his burst damage after deploy and relocate; but gives him more mobility to get into melee. Maybe it's too much. For Maddening Echoes, another alternative (not sure if it's better) is to have maddening echoes apply sonic: immunity for 1 turn, removing the 2x potential, but keeping the current scaling. I guess the issue is whether it punishes bad positioning too much, or whether it creates the potential for too much burst damage.
Just knock down Berserker 3 to Berserker 2 so it doesn't get that extra +1 speed. A 7 speed Warogg isn't that scary. I'm fine with adding Lumbering, but don't sandbag the dorf with points in damage...that's just infuriating. At least put all the points in hp instead. I support removing access to Flamestrike ranks 2 and 3 from Bok Raider, and appropriately lowering Bok Raiders Nora cost to 70/71/74 with Flamestrike 1, BUT increasing the nora cost of Bok Raider at the same time is a significant overnerf I do not support. I'm sorry but no to all of this. Maddening Echoes is fine as is. It only does significant damage if there are 4 or more champions in a small AoE 2. These changes are just unnecessary. Sounds good.
Bok Raider (nerf): Yes, I know, I'm asking for a change to the same champ again - I'm sorry. I dropped the ball on the last patch and the changes didn't really do the job. This guy is the bane of my life so this time I want to make sure it gets a significant nerf. Basically, I'm thinking to reduce him to flamestrike 1 - this limits his ability to work as a pure range sniper (flamestrike 1 has only 3 range) and also differentiates him from nef dragon a bit more. Upgrade path 1 changed to flamestrike 1 and aerial supremacy (rather than 3 ranks of flame strike). Additional Nora cost of 7 added so that he ends up between 77 - 81. you need to realise that there are very few range and UD mostly need long range abilities to compensate for it why not remove arrow shot and keep flame strike i prefer flamestrike 3 to arrowshot IMO i would agree to reduce to flamestrike 2
Stitched First really needs a buff. It may be Stitched but it's still a UD champion. Currently Stitched First looks like this: Stats: Nora 83 Damage 9 Speed 6 Range 1-1 Defense 0 Hp 42 Abilities: Attack: Magical Immortality Reconstitute Stitched and 2 out of the following 3 abilities Reconstruct: Dreameater, Reconstruct: Magician, Reconstruct: Blackguard Conclusion: - Reconstructs share cooldowns, so having 2 Reconstructs is nice for variety but probably too much of a sandbag. - First is an 83 nora squishy melee champion whose reconstructing job is better served by any of the ranged, and also cheaper reconstructors. I.E. First is shoebox - Reconstitute is a really powerful ability, but it under performs on a squishy melee champion like First. Solution(s): - Reconstructs do not share a cooldown. - Give First Psychic Ping 2, Relocate: Relic, and/or Transfer Life 1/2 somehow.
Is there a particular case where people keep mentioning Bok Raider, is it just something that needs to be shoeboxed before people are happy about it? It's a case where its use is practically by default since there is nothing else when it comes to range. I'd like to one day Make Bok Warden a dedicated ranged unit, or something else, so options could justify the change. The only problem with this/what people hate is the deploy + attack -- I'm saying if you really want to change that either make it reinforcement or remove it altogether. The simple case is no need to further one of the very very few ranged options left. The Maddening Echoes change actually makes it less situational, it's a lateral shift at worst, it isn't enough to actually effect anything. It's one of those awkward situations for me, I don't really know if it's currently tearing up the meta (which wouldn't be surprising they've been careless with Combat Awareness), but I see it as a faction defining rune and much in the way I don't see anyone discussing changinge gale force or mobilization (though this does have a thread), I can't see this changing --- any significant change is basically ruining it(Instead of just +5 nora, over and over, which people are fond of). I agree, I saw dwarves lose lumbering and knew that would be an issue. Warrog doesn't need to stop his combo, it's what defines him, I second Spieky in instead just nerfing berserker rank down. Those are my thoughts for now, unless you want some other eligible picks for nerfs.
balefire: knight with his quest on his dragon dragon: cheap, fast fire dragon raider: this champ has class archer, but is the only archer in the game with melee range. When UD is distracted, it loses 80% its range threat. (73% of all statistics in made up on the spot)
Great news for magus.love that rune never got why it was trashed so much.I presume it would have charged attack? With maddening echoes what about just making it unique?I agree that the issue is double tap and ca
