First should lose one of the Reconstruct upgrade paths for Transfer Life 1/2, Relocate: Relic, Psychic Ping upgrade path tbh. Having a second Reconstruct is essentially a 12 Nora sandbag. First's upgrade paths should be Reconstruct: Dreameater/ Reconstruct: Blackguard/ Reconstruct: Magician Relocate: Relic/ Transfer Life 1/ Transfer Life 2 So 75 nora First with Relocate: Relic, 73 with TL 1, and 79 with TL 2. This is probably all First needs to lose shoebox status. That 12 nora sandbag it currently has is really holding it back. Also it needs some kind of support ability such as Relocate: Relic/ Transfer Life anyways.
Personally, Badger, I think you have been suggesting too many nerfs. Maybe I'm alone in this, but you've always been quick to nerf-call UD's runes and it seems like it's a subjective stance that's carrying over into your council suggestions. That's not an insult or me bashing you or anything, I have tremendous respect for you which is why I'm being so direct here. Now, about your proposed changes: The nerf to Maddening Echoes in particular, I disagree with. I can't remember the last time I dropped it down for 28, but the times I have I've usually had to nuke my own champion to get the count up to 5. As for Warogg: Personally, I hate the Berserker + Unstoppable interaction. I know it's "been around a long time", which a lot of people use as an excuse to keep things around even though they're nonsensical (e.g. Incorporeal). I think if anything needs to happen to him though, it's just downgrading to Berserker 1 and keeping Unstoppable. I like having viable Unstoppable champs in UD, there aren't enough around. Scorched Dwarf sounds good, no idea why he lost Lumbering in the first place. Don't really care either way about Bok Raider, but I think any changes to Bok Raider should be made concurrently with changes to Nefari Dragon and Balefire Knight to differentiate the three. I agree about Magus being gutted. I think your recommendation is fine. Now, back to what I was talking about in the first sentence - I think there should be more buff suggestions. I have a few preliminary ideas: Deep Elf Monk - Yes, he's one of my favorite runes ever, so there's significant bias here - but I don't see anyone else sticking up for him, so I gotta do it. Monk has always been super fun to play because he had Multi + Pummel and 7 SPD. So he was really fast and could pull off two attacks for 2 AP for some fancy kills. I always liked that about him. However, he has inexplicably lost Multiattack and is still very expensive. So I know he's throwing an arrow in the art, but could we possibly remove Dodge + Arrow Throw in exchange for a Multiattack upgrade path and potentially Absorb on base? With both of these changes, his overall cost would go up by 4, which makes him 80 Nora for the bare bones build - still a little expensive. Potentially a good candidate for a sandbag like Vulnerable. Anyway, just some thoughts. Hook Fiend - For the love of all that is Unholy, let him have 6 SPD again. 5 SPD base is killing this rune. And I'd much rather run two Hooks than two Summoners, it fits a different playstyle. Nefari Messenger - Seeing her at 89 really saddens me. Not sure why she was given Life Siphon, but considering the ability is 10 Nora I'm guessing that's why she costs so much now. Why does she need this when she has Regen, and why was Regen 3 taken off her upgrade path...? None of it makes sense to me. I don't see why we can't remove Life Siphon and give her the option of Regen 3 in the path. Sheoul Disciple - This rune has been pretty much unplayable for a long time now. We all wish that Disciple's Rapture would work, but (as far as I know) it's still broken. The rest of the rune doesn't make much sense, particularly Immunity: Magical. Maybe since she's a Disciple she gets Worship, or something? Soulthirster - I realize he was changed as partly a nerf, and partly to differentiate between Soulbleeder. Brain Eater is such a cool ability though. What if instead of Soul Siphon and Life Siphon and those repetitive abilities, he got Swallow Whole? Goes with the art, makes him a unique threat, makes sense with Brain Eater... I dunno, just a thought. Unhinged Bok - This atrocity has been a disappointment since release. I think Legato has had some nice ideas on how to re-design her. I'd love to be able to use this rune. Those are my thoughts... thanks!
I disagree with any changes to Maddening Echoes. Here's my point: BALANCE. We don't have a spell which bounces from enemy champion to enemy champion causing both damage AND a status condition. We don't have a spell which makes ALL champions in play receive a lot more damage from a mostly physical faction. We don't have a spell which both OHKO's relics and damages champions. We don't have a spell which pacifies champions for like 6 turns if you don't waste AP disengaging them. If possible. And more importantly, we don't have GALE FORCE. You know, the spell which punishes you for not watching where you leave your champ by causing KNOCKBACK 3. THREE. People, it might only deal 5 damage, but on the wrong circunstances, that Knockback is either going to throw your champs into a chasm; or outright make them swallow the Knockback on damage by throwing them against relics (yours even), your own champs (causing both knockback damage), or against environment walls (just knockback damage). Maddening Echoes, as the OP states, deals way too little damage when used on 2 champs as many would just use a Fire Blast to do the job. Maddening Echoes is our Gale Force. It requires 2 to kill champions, unlike some spell which punishes your lack of care when positioning champions by throwing them into a chasm, or making them swallow up 10 damage per bloqued square of Knockback (plus it also causes damage to whoever blocked that path). I also forgot the annoying relocation which delays your next move for yet another turn. Where they probable stack on Blizzard Cloaks, Snowblinds, Blessing of of the female dog, Ancient Implications, Yeti statue, and/or Containment Unit. Oh, and thanks Sepulcher for reminding me of this one. WE might HAVE to NUKE our OWN champions just to obtain the so-called "power spell" right. I don't think any of the other factions have to worry at all. Indeed, we are the only faction which will sacrifive their own champions in order to achieve victory. Because, you know, we can't spam healing and debuff like any other factions. Maddening Echoes only punishes ONE situation where the opponent is not careful of positioning his champs in such a manner which anyone with enough cones, bombs, and even our favourite combo unit, Ember Wasp would be heavily exploited. Maddening Echoes is right as it is.
Thanks for the comments everyone. I appreciate the feedback, and I do take every comment seriously. Of course we have a range of opinions for all the runes mentioned, though there seems to be positive consensus on scorched dwarf and sheoul magus. to address a couple of comments: Hey Sep, you're right that I have always been self-critical of UDs strongest stuff in the past, but I don't think i've carried this over into the PDC. As a group the PDC have decided to prioritize nerfs over buffs. We have also decided to tackle some longstanding OP runes, or 'heritage' runes as we call them. You'll notice that thorn collection, blink, and mobilization were hit last patch. It should also be noted that UD is one of the strongest factions right now, so I'm definitely not nerfing in excess of other factions (trees aside). In any case, I think next patch will be more even between nerfs and buffs. Re. Echoes. I really like the flavour to this spell too, it is very UD and I want to keep that, and keep it viable. But being on both ends of this spell, having won and lost games to double echoes, I think the swing is simply too much and too luck based,
This would be great. Sheoul Magus and the entire Bleed theme was absolutely my favorite pre-revamp. Also, is there any chance that we could try and rework Voidraker into the Bleed theme again? I really hate that she lost that Bleed synergy. At this point I have no idea what I could possibly suggest for her, it just seems like to me that she got slapped on with random upgrades.
Maybe he meant the 'luck' in your opponent forgetting/not factoring echoes? Or the misfortune if you're the one forgetting. It's definitely something I've thought about when considering its inclusion -- there are only two spells you need to always be conscious about against UD, this and sacrifice. Seeing this change when it's so flavorful is a bit tough, I think that given the current onslaught of ghost, and the problem of what essentially can become Immunity - Everything, I was thinking that a good topic you should bring up is having Incorporeal units be affected by not only Magic, but also Sonic and Psychic damage. It would be an indirect nerf to Echoes. I too, have been on both ends of echoes, likely more often on the receiving end since I only used it in decks where I could place 2 of them/catered to them. I don't think the design of echoes is wrong, in fact I think it's perfect. The damage is really low for the first few ranks, which means you really need to position carefully, or hurt yourself for it to be worthwhile. The problem is when we can negate it too easily -- and this can be done with Combat Awareness and Incorporeal. I think not affecting CA makes sense, and I'm fond of this synergy, albeit we currently have too many CA units (I understand the arguments that units unaffected should not count -- and that's the furthest I'd change it) but Incorporeal is overdue for a change.
I think Incorporeal should only lose inmunity against Psychic. No particular reason. I just think that, within the lore and stuff of our fantasy setting, attacking the mind is just the same as using whatever the hell magic is. Aaaaaaaaaaalso, we got plenty of good Psychic units, meaning that we just don't get the upper hand. More likely we just have to adjust our bgs to have both magic and psychic damage to deal with them. We can damage them, they are not blasted by Echoes. Everybody is happy and beating each other.
What he said.the monk used to be so much fun bring him back! Sep did you hear what gedden said about brain eater?
You really want bok raider to be nerfed..? Its a good and solid champ. Just look at the bale fire knight, he can do everything what bok raider does and costs the same. No one cries about him. I think both of them are pretty solid and shouldn't be nerfed. They were useless a long time, i would hate it to see them shoeboxed again. Dont nerf the dragon!
So, the main problem with scorched dwarf is that he can capture off-hand fonts? But giving lumbering would discount too much and would move him to next to free? What about font ignorance? At one hand, it only discounts 8n, which can be easily compensated by granting some hp, like 6 or 7. HP have the advantage to made the dwarf a better target for abilities like drain, so isn't entirely a waste, unlike some damage or some def. Still, even if we go as far as granting 10hp, a champion with 4 spd and 32hp would not do much in a fight. At the other hand, font ignorance kills completely the perceived troublesome mechanic. The only situation where the dwarf would have a chance to shine would be if the player takes it and moves it into the opponent's font to contest it with a relic, but, again, with 4 spd any competent opponent would see it coming a mile away and prepare for it (for said purposes, the regular imp does a better job with shadowspawn), and personally I think the dwarf is more valuable generating nora at the shrine rather than risking itself on the front lines contesting fonts without being able to capture them on his own.
I think font ignorance is an ability that should be avoided unless absolutely intrinsic to a design. It just seems an unintuitive thing to slap on a champ, and something that could confuse a newbie playing the rune for the first time. You bring up a good point about the extra utility of hit points - as well as drain he becomes an expendable masochism target and flame siphon target... Which I think I like.
While I agree with you about Font Ignorance not being essential, I find it fits. The entire problem at hand is that this isn't a rune much intended to capture fonts, it's an enslaved dwarf with no business on the front lines, consistent with the 'lore' part of it, it would solve a problem but still let it move around, lumbering with put the cost significantly lower, though I actually like the proposal and more hp to ensure the cost stays the same either way.
No, what did he say? I don't know if I want to hear the answer, judging from the opinions I've heard on other abilities...
He said something to the effect of: It's currently on Soulthirster as a test (they want to see how the community reacts to said ability), and it will likely be removed from the game if it causes problems because Gedden feels it's too random of a benefit, that it's not practical. Something like that.
Pardon the cynicism, but "seeing how the community reacts"? ell oh ell. Like that has any bearing on his decisions. "The community" has been throwing a huge tantrum about the power level of trees for weeks on end, among other things, and nothing's happening. Gedden does what Gedden wants, it seems. And it seems like he wants Brain Eater out, even though it's one of the coolest passives in the game. Oh well...
That he didn't like brain eater as an ability as it was so hard to balance hence coragh lost it.souly kept it to see what happened but if anyone complains he'll take it off.think it should stay for now tho certainly no one is crying about him.
I just threw in soulthirster into my one of my bg's, he's doing pretty good with soul siphon and brain eater. Really fun seeing what new ability he gains with each kill.
I have to agree with Sepulcher that we need a few more buffs for all the nerfs. I'd think 2 Buffs : 1 Nerf is ideal in the revamp environment when so many things have upgrade problems, but I guess I'm an outlier ;P That said, my thoughts: Warogg I agree that Berserker/Unstoppable should never be available from one rune. I don't mind it being a combo of two separate runes, but never (or at least very rarely) just one. Scorched Dwarf +1 for Lumbering! Bok Raider Again, I echo Sepulcher by asking that noticeable differences be made to Nefari Dragon, Bok Raider and Balefire Knight. I'd see them shifted to focus on Fire damage, mid-ranged striker and melee bruiser respectively. Maddening Echoes I'd narrow it even further to 6/10/14/18/22 for nice, even numbers. OPTIONAL: you could require that you target your own champ to start the spell. In that case, you could slide the numbers up to 8/12/16/20/24. Sheoul Magus I agree with your goal, but I encourage you to pick a rank of Abuse Charged to commit to and fill the third slot with something else. I don't like seeing multiple ranks in upgrade paths and actively promote a more diverse set of options to pick between. Additional Candidates Deep Elf Fire Dancer - [9 DMG | 6 SPD | 1-3 RNG | 0 DEF | 42HP] Path 1 = Damage Shield: Fire 3 | Fire Aura 3 | Flamestrike 2 Path 2 = Antagonize | Arcane Dance | Blind Base = Attack: Fire | Deflect: Fire | Fascinate | Resistance: Fire 2 or 3 (Default upgrades = Fire Aura 3 + Arcane Dance) Bump her up to 9 DMG/6 SPD and reorganize her upgrades while fleshing them out. Flamestrike 2 provides an occasional +1 RNG to her attack as a way of "lashing" out while Antagonize is an interesting alternative to Blind. Deep Elf Temptress - [10 DMG | 5 SPD | 3-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 40HP] Path 1 = Distract | Grand Entrance | Impenetrable Path 2 = Confuse | Fear 2 | Restraining Aura Base = Attack: Magical | Charm 3 | Punish (Default upgrades = Distract + Confuse) She may also need 6 SPD, but bumping her to 3-4 RNG, might make her slower speed easier to deal with. I avoided the natural options of Abash/Fascinate because it would cause overlap with Deep Elf Fire Dancer and/or Succubus. Nefari Soul Torch - [8 DMG | 6 SPD | 2-4 RNG | 0 DEF | 40HP] Path 1 = Flame Nova 3 (Inhibits!) | Incinerate 1 | Set Ablaze Path 2 = Fire Eater | Fire Volatility | Immunity: Fire Base = Attack: Fire | Fester (Searing Touch?) | Torch (Default upgrades = Set Ablaze + Immunity: Fire) Torch is a painful sandbag in its current form. It needs to be reverted to the previous version that deals Fire damage instead of Life Loss with a slight cost decrease (1-3N). This change makes Fire Acolyte too strong to include as an upgrade, but will increase her viability due to its affect on other champs with Fire Acolyte. I'd like to see Fester changed to Searing Touch, but that's not as important. Shadow Hunter - [8 DMG | 7 SPD | 1 RNG | 0 DEF | 44HP] Path 1 = Escape | Shadowstrike | Stealth Path 2 = Bounty Hunter | Dispel | Mark Base = Attack: Physical | Domain: Shadows | Flight | Mischief | Shadowspawn (Default upgrades = Shadowstrike + Mark) I've always had trouble including this fellah in my BGs as he's overly expensive thanks to Bounty Hunter. Pick Shadowspawn and he's prioritized once revealed because he can't re-stealth (meaning don't bother with Domain: Shadows). Picking Escape/Stealth reveal where he entered play increasing the likelihood they'll deploy Detection nearby because they don't have to guess. To that end, put Domain: Shadows/Shadowspawn on base and give his DMG/HP a tap. His stealth path now ensures he has a method of stealthing post-shadowspawn. Tempo would be too much with these changes (double AP gen) so replace it with Mark. Choosing Bounty Hunter will probably make him more expensive than he is now, but he'll at least have a better chance of utilizing it before he dies.
