Ranked idea.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Poxbrothers, Mar 9, 2014.

  1. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl


    I started thinking about a new ranked system as a way to decrease the big load of "info" someone needs in order to get started in this game, I'll try to explain it underneath and will try to sum up advantages and possible disadvantages. It's somewhat based on the model used in Hearthstone.

    So basically the idea is that you have 2 tiers:

    Rare tier:
    - Every player starts in this tier.
    - Only runes from the core set can be used in this tier (including LE reskins) (LEGs, Extended set and Last expansion runes aren't allowed).
    - You start at rank 25
    - You need 3 wins (wins can be shown as stars or w/e) in order to go up one rank.
    - Every win you get one star, every loss you lose one star.

    Legendary tier:
    - Once you reach rank 20 you start in the legendary tier.
    - Once you reach rank 20 you can not fall below that rank again.
    - All runes are allowed here.
    - You need 3 wins (wins can be shown as stars or w/e) in order to go up one rank.
    - Every win you get one star, every loss you lose one star.

    Obviously this would only work properly if people get matched up in their own tier, and preferably with people as close to their rank possible.
    Every rank should have a cool Poxnora related name.

    - New players only need to worry about 50% of the runes at the moment they join the game.
    - New players have time to earn some gold while trying to rank up in the Rare tier.
    - For an experienced player it would not be too hard to get up to the Legendary tier.
    - A new player would be for quite some time in the Rare tier, so they have time to learn the game.
    - Possible to give certain non-tradeable, non-shardable rewards reaching lower ranks. (prevent alt abuse) (for example a core set premade BG after their first win or an extended set premade BG when they reach rank 20) etc. etc.
    - Possible to give tradeable rewards for reaching higher ranks.
    - Ranked feels like a challenge!
    - Can possibly boost the sales of core set packs/boxes.

    - Experienced players aren't immediately able to play with all the runes.
    - High playstyle difference when going to the higher tier.
    - Divides the fairly small playerbase.

    I think there are advantages and disadvantages that I am missing, so feel free to add some.
    I would also like to state that this is a basic idea, so it's open for input.


    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  2. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Bump for input.
  3. kaion1994

    kaion1994 New Member

    i just thinking that they should make it harder to get rank up .... rares .. exos and lms are too munch , it's just like rare and exo are uncommon and lm are rare .... i think just make 20 lm .
  4. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I think this doesn't really solve the problem with the current ELO system, though I agree reaching LE league would feel like more of an achievement.


  5. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Edited post a bit, looking for some more opinions on why you think this would/wouldn't be an interesting idea.
    I do realize fixing ranked is not the number one thing on the do list, but this would also add too the NUX which makes it interesting in my opinion (helping out with one problem and solving another).


  6. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Last bump for input!
  7. oyo97

    oyo97 I need me some PIE!

    hi good effort but nah i think the system we currently have is decent just bugged as hell. You shouldnt go limited when u win 2 games on an alt vs unranked players and you shouldnt lose xp when u win even its lim vs uncommon lol

    And new players can just play training games till they feel ready for ranked. In Moba games like LoL, Dota there are restrictions before u can even join ranked games like br lvl30 or have certain amount of champs etc and i think sth like this would be the way to go.
  8. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    But the point is that with our current system the devs are unable to find the problem.
    I honestly do not think the problem lays with the ranked system but with the amount of ranks compared to the playerbase. The system counts up all XP earned and lost and at the end of the day compares that too all the other players XP earned and lost, the fact that it's not real time, doesn't help either, but real time would be hard to implant with the ELO system (and hard on data I guess).

    I agree that new players should start in the new training grounds, but it would be cool if you could start earning some gold in the TG to create a Core set BG to play in the rare tier.
    For a new player it would take some time to get out there (basically until they have 15 more wins than losses).
    This helps with the build up for the "real ranked" which would be the Legendary tier.
    You could see the rare tier as the LoL up till lvl 30.

    I do truly believe that rank will have a real meaning with this system too, as you would need 60 more wins than losses to gain rank 1, while constantly being matched up against people closer to your rank. At the start this will mean longer q times, but with a growing playerbase, this would be more than worth it in my opinion.


  9. oyo97

    oyo97 I need me some PIE!

    well lets take me for example when i hadnt so much runes i invested solely in one bg: snaptooth. So i only played this one bg for a long time in ranked, but what would i have done when there are no legendaries allowed ? no chilan and no ancient ? :< i woulda be pretty pissed ;D otherwise i like it just those restrictions i find problematic for those kind of players who are experienced but have a very limited pool of runes
  10. MentalMoles

    MentalMoles I need me some PIE!

    I think this is more complicated than the current system to be honest.
  11. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Well that's exactly the point, with my new system new players wouldn't have to worry about LEGs, or the more expensive Extended/Latest expansion runes.
    A new player could join in, make a decent BG for other people that also only play with core runes at a fairly low price or even completely free (with gold, which they could spend on boxes and packs from the core set).
    As you aren't allowed to use LEGs in the "Rare Tier" you would instantly have some trade value from the moment you enter the "Legendary Tier" (as for a new player it would take a bit to get out of the "Rare Tier"

    As you would be a player with a lot of experience it would be fairly easy for you to get out of the "Rare Tier" as you would mostly face less experienced players, which can be beaten even with a "worse" BG, also to update your BG and make it stronger in the "Rare Tier" would be considerably cheaper in gold as in USD as you would only need to buy Core set runes (less than half the price of new expansion runes), this means players can get hooked easier with a way lower buy-in entry.

    Now I come to think of it, this would also prove that Poxnora isn't really P2W (as the BGs in the "Rare Tier" would be around the same powerlvl, in which case skill would mostly determine the outcome of a game).

    Have you ever tried playing Hearthstone?
    It's very similar to their model, and while it might sound complicated in theory, it's actually fairly simple in practice (atleast that's what I found).


  12. bl4cksc4r

    bl4cksc4r New Member

    ^ Yeah bro LOL this is literally straight from Hearthstone
  13. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Well there are a few small changes.
    (In Hearthstone you can instantly use the full card-pool and in Hearthstone you don't lose stars at the low ranks making it not competitive at all, though in Hearthstone just a couple of games learn you how to play the game, which 100% isn't the case in Poxnora, hence the few changes, to have a low-lvl competitive environment in which you would stay a while as a new player to get to learn the game).
    And let's be honest here, the ranking system in Hearthstone is easy and attractive (well atleast in my opinion).


  14. Zenity

    Zenity Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I don't think this goes far enough. I believe that Pox Nora Core is the better game for beginners (with or without legendaries), so I don't think it's a good idea to throw them out of it as soon as they got 15 victories. I'd go as far as to make Core a separate queue. Once you reach level X you are allowed to join the Unlimited queue, but you don't have to. If people want to play with Core forever, let them. The game's ecosystem will still benefit from having those players around, even if they never join the Unlimited player pool.

    I do like the Hearthstone rank system for beginners, and I think it would be a good idea for such a Core queue. Unlimited could still be using the ELO system, I think that's the better system for highly competitive players.
  15. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    You don't throw them out after 15 more victories than you had losses, in the Legendary league you would be allowed to use all runes, core runes included.
    And I guess that could work too, perhaps give people the option to always completely reset their rank when they want?

    I honestly believe that if there are enough ranks the Hearthstone rank system can make up for a way more competitive lvl of gameplay, also I'm from the believe that people might not like the idea of two different rank systems.


  16. Zenity

    Zenity Devotee of the Blood Owl

    While we are speaking of this ranking system, I think it would also great to have a comparable ranking for training grounds. Training grounds are great for new players, but the downside is that there is no sense of progression and you get matched up with veterans. Ranks would solve both problems, but of course that will only be really useful once there is a critical mass of new players.
  17. Poxbrothers

    Poxbrothers Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I think this would be interesting indeed, if I understand correctly that in the Training Grounds we're still only talking about the Public Decks, right?
    And I agree it's not top priority now, but I think from the moment DoG will put effort into retaining new players, things like this are important to determine if a new player sticks around or if he doesn't.


  18. Zenity

    Zenity Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Yeah not absolutely highest priority, but those things definitely need to be worked out before the game has another shot at Steam. There is so much potential in this game, now it's just about channeling that potential appropriately so new players can actually benefit from it.

    To summarize, this would be my battle plan:
    • Add rankings to Training Grounds. Start veterans at a higher rank so they don't interfere too much with the incoming newbies.
    • Create a Core queue with separate rankings. Only allow Core runes in there. Make Core packs super cheap and provide plenty of free rewards, to make this the primary hook for new players. Create a very guided path for new players where they constantly have an ongoing task which promises more free rewards upon completion.
    • Ensure the servers can handle thousands of concurrent users, then unleash the beast on Steam (after some more improvements to the game of course, like removing the champ XP system).
    When pitching to new players, I would position it like this:
    • Training Grounds basically offers a completely free turn based strategy game, where no player has an artificial advantage over another. Perhaps rename it to make this more clear. Don't underestimate how powerful this alone can be, especially if you add rankings to this. Sure you don't earn anything from these players, but if you want to catch a lot of fish, you need some juicy bait.
    • Pox Nora Core is for those who want to play for free or just spend a couple of bucks here and there. What you have here is an incredibly deep TCG at a great price and with reasonable accessibility.
    • Pox Nora Extended/Unlimited is the premium offering, which features thousands of additional cards, tons of interesting themes and great art. Push this with extra services like tournaments, drafts, maybe make avatars exclusive to this, and so on. Make it clear that you don't have to buy into this, but that they won't regret if they do.
    Pox Nora Core would be the gateway for new players. Pox Nora Extended would be where all the veterans hang out. And Training Grounds would be an alternative option for both beginners and veterans alike that takes deck building out of the equation.
  19. Xinde

    Xinde Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Core and Extended queues would be amazing. But I'd love to get 2v2 working again first.

    And then maybe there can be frequent tournaments which consist of core + 3 random expansions + the most recent expansion (promotion).


    As far as the current ranking system goes... It's is mostly an issue because of bugs, the fact that it only updates once per day, and small playerbase. It's based off of Chess ELO, which is a pretty good system and used as the basis for many ranking systems.

    In your Heathstone imitation, what happens when a player hits Legendary rank 1? This seems like a finitely bounded system, which has no incentive for the top player(s) to play aside from preventing the occasional rank decay. It punishes rather than rewards. In an elo system you can have a player try to reach a new "high" even if they are the number 1 player. Or you can have them increase the gap between themselves and the number 2 player. How does Hearthstone deal with this issue?
  20. Zenity

    Zenity Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Actually I just realised that the "three wins for next rank" system only works well if you have a lot of players, so you can match up players of equal ranks. If opponents can be of wildly differing ranks, it becomes pretty random.

    It's a beautifully simple system, but ultimately it only works so well for Hearthstone because Blizzard knew they would have a critical mass of players to support it. Even if Pox Nora becomes ten times as popular as it is now, it might still not be enough.

    For that reason I think we need to stick with simple ELO at least for the foreseeable future. The game already sorts people into leagues, but the match making right now can't even guarantee that an exotic league players isn't matched up against an unranked... And that's not because it isn't trying.

    I still want a Core queue though, and I do think that beginners should be restricted to it for a while (for their own benefit). Of course this will also have to be coordinated with a push to gain new players, otherwise the single beginner in the Core queue won't be very happy...

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