Refute seems like a really poorly designed rune

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    It can win a game by luck, creates instances of snowballing, is really unfair feeling for the opponent, and is really strong. Can we get a 100% nora refund for the opposing player, or drastically reduce the cd from 8 and change the nora cost from 40?

    It also encourages decks to only use cheap meat, which was supposed to be one of the things that Pox wanted to move away from, to my understanding.
  2. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    Are blink, drown, vertical push so much different? Allthough cant say i have used refute in atleast 5 years.
    about luck, i must be the most lucky player atm. first i tested psychic immunity units and faced a foglar with psy damage
    then i tested magic immunity and got a KF player with magic damage
    finally 2 wins
    luck aint bad :)
  3. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Drown can be, but at least it costs a ton of nora as an investment and it requires set up (I'd rather it leave champions with 1 hp, but I understand why drown exists, since FS BGs arent supposed to have scaling units because of their bonus). But refuting a key rune is just blind luck, and it can snowball a game like crazy. I don't think any of the runes you mentioned are designed well, although I can't comment on blink and vertical push, since I haven't seen them enough truthfully (im noob). Does IS bonus reduce blink damage btw?

    A little luck isn't bad, but things which make the game entirely luck and not any player decision are poorly designed. I don't have a problem losing a game, but I should feel like I have say in HOW I lose. It's not very satisfying to me when I player just plays a card and I lose because "thats the way things are, bad luck" Refute has no counter aside from guessing if the opponent played it or not.
  4. Hierokliff

    Hierokliff I need me some PIE!

    tried refute, was sure it wasnt playable the first turn? but now it is. was kinda fun to drop a refute and a cheap unit the first turn and get a huge advantage directly. But its 40nora cost for IS-player, while the other loses 50% of their noracost. if they drop a cheap rune its a meh, if they drop a 80+ nora champ its a huge gain.
    blink+vertical push removes champ from the game for as long as there is something standing in the place where they used to be.
  5. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    Refute is one of those runes I love playing but I hate being on the receiving end as well. IMO it should be Auto in any IS BG because of its ability to cause havoc to a Thematic BG by delaying needed runes etc.

    It is a very costly rune and can be a Nora drain but it could also be a great Nora drain for the opponent.

    I say leave it as it.
  6. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I think themes should be encouraged. They help keep the game interesting and varied. a rune which specifically challenges this notion seems like poor design to me.

    Not to mention the idea of "Auto" include kills variety as well.
  7. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    It's not Auto Include currently. But IMO it should be
  8. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

  9. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    What I'm trying to say is it's not ran in every single IS BG currently. It's not a Meta Rune. It's and underrated rune that people don't run every single IS BG. Therefore it's not "Auto-Include".

    I would run it in every IS BG I build but that is just me. Hence I said IMO.

    I don't mean to sound rude or anything I just want to make sure I get my point across correctly.
  10. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Its fine. Leave as is.
  11. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    It's not fine. It's horribly designed. Change it.
  12. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    It's fine man. It's an ancient rune and hasnt been changed in ages. That typically means it's good where it's at.
  13. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    That's usually not true from my experience, see things like Warwick from League of legends.
  14. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Sure it may win you a few games by luck but it will win you a lot once you start keeping track of an opponents nora and plan for their big deploys.
  15. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    I never track Nora to the exact amount. I just ballpark it. I am pretty sure most people don't track it and keep a calculator in hand.
  16. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    I count nora about 75% of my games vs good players.
  17. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!


    I don't take ranked gameplay as serious as others so I just ballpark it.
  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    You mean you lack the discipline to do something right ;)

    In all seriousness though, I don't count Nora either, simply because I don't know how much things cost, and I don't know what runes belong to what bg, aside from op runes like tornado, reforge, medal of valor, demolish, shatter, and the like. I just see how much Nora I am spending and on what, see how much the opponent is spending and on what, and posture from there.

    But the point really is, sure you can make an educated guess, and sure there is some skill involved, but the rune is poorly designed , that fact can't be refuted. It is also overpowered, but the balance issue is only my opinion. It IS poorly designed.

    As a side note, this topic made me realize the importance of constantly deploying. Skipping a turn of deployment will be an all in unless you have an advantage already.
  19. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    I don't lack discipline. That has always been there. I just don't take ranked seriously. I have before and I've reached battle master without issues. I just play fun Bags I get tired of Meta BG matches and the cheese BGs higher tiers use to gain rank.

    Refute IMO is fine as is. Because regardless of how much Nora your counting there is still a risk that the opponent decides to deploy his relic before a champion and that typically means you didn't counter a high cost rune.

    HOWEVER if that relic was let's say a Banner and that player had already calculated his kill (like most high ranked players) with the +1DMG it grants he now has to change his death strategy.

    I may have missed it but you keep saying it's a bad design. What exactly is your suggestion to change the rune?
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  20. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Firstly, I play pox instead of bettering my life, so I have the discipline of a fat person eating Doritos, don't respect my judgement, although I appreciate the sentiment truly.

    I think it should be made useless to the point of gimmick, as is etheral pool, tratiours helm, and shrine damage strats. I know that may sound like I'm limiting innovation, but I'm actually all for innovation, just so long as it promotes decent pox experience for both the losing and winning player. Refute is always going to be a rune which will be a gimmick by design, the fact that it actually strong as markoth confirms, is problematic.

    I've defended chop blocks in other topics. My reasoning was that although chop blocks are gimmicky in a sense, they are not nearly as poorly designed. In particular, the opponent knows it is coming, and can actually make it backfire by manipulating the board, or straight up seism it. Not to mention it doesn't end the game as easily as a refute does, since it has more of a supporting role in winning the game.(although, I would listen to a detailed analysis on snowballing with it, but I've heard bballer say it wasn't very good, and I agree mostly).

    Personally, I don't care if they give it a complete redesign, or gut it. I didn't offer a solution, but off the top of my head, it would be MUCH healthier as an activatable relic which dies after triggering.

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