Refute seems like a really poorly designed rune

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    So what you are saying is that because the opponent can't predict Refute, that it is too strong and the design is horrible and in addition it would be OK in its current desgin as a relic with the Refute ability?

    Refute is ONLY good if it surprises it's opponent. I wouldn't run a relic that would cost about 25 to 35 Nora just to Refute a Lichling, Sapling, or something else cheap. Also there is a big threat of Seism just countering the relic.

    Similar spells to Refute that come to mind are

    Backfire Boon
    Ancients Protection
    Cancel Magic

    These spells wouldn't be effective if it wasn't for the hidden effect. It's important to keep Refute as a hidden spell and not a relic.

    With that being said I don't think this spell will be changed anytime in the near future especially when there isnt even a decent design suggestion for it.

    My respect to your opinion and views

  2. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Ancients protection deals 15 damage to your own shrine when triggered. And it only works on spells.

    I'm saying because the spell has 0 counter play, it is horribly designed. I am also more partial to spell blocks than champion and relic blocks, since not being allowed to deploy champions is much worse than spells: spells are by nature themselves unpredictable, but add a certain element of randomness that is needed in a card game. Champion deployment in contrast is a fundamental part of the game

    I'm actually of the opinion high end damage spells are not good for the game as well, but that's a red pill for another time.

    Also, you misunderstand how powerful it would be even as a relic. By simply not activating the relic, you would force your opponent to play two cards EVERY turn. Your opponent would lose so much map presence at the cost of 40 Nora. But at least he could seism or kill it. And at least he wouldn't outright lose the game to rng. and if his big card DID get refuted, he could say "well, I risked it for biscuit" not "well this is fair".
  3. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    If you suspect that it is up you throw a relic or 20 nora spell, equip etc. out there. At worst you get a relic. At best you just came out 30ish nora ahead of the player using Refute.
    Tweek516 likes this.
  4. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Except I can't exactly predict if he is running it or not. And it does potentially game ending damage. And the little counterplay doesn't change the fact that the spell is horribly designed xD

    But you are right, I misspoke - it does not have viable counter-play, is what I meant.

    Hell, think about it on the 3rd round, are you going to not deploy a key unit just because he might be running refute? And I'm not saying it will win the game every game no matter what. I'm saying it is powerful, and poorly designed.
  5. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Yeah but you could make that same argument about pretty much every hidden spell in the game. If you want to detect an opponents hidden spells run a champion with Favor, Spellswallower, Spell Charged, Council: Spells or any of the many effects that proc on spell cast. Its one of the reasons I run Minister.
    Tweek516 likes this.
  6. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    Just because you can't predict it, doesn't mean it's design is horrible. You can argue that you can't predict any spell. With that said, are you saying all spells have a horrible design because they can't be predicted?
  7. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    He could also run a spell seal rune to prevent spell spam.
  8. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Spell swallower and favor are deployed from units which make refute win anyways, take dark apprentice in a lich theme per example (when you need the extra 5 max hp).

    refute is poorly designed because it counters champion deploys which are central to a theme. Blocking a fireblast or essnse drain is fair game, since those are spells, not champions. I really don't know what else to say, refute doesn't even fit into a theme, its just a card you play, and its either always effective or ineffective, since u end up winning in nora cost.
  9. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    Not sure what you mean by this. If you have a spellswallower or tempo champ out and it procs but there isnt a visible effect it likely means that there is a hidden spell in play. You then have to look at the games circumstances. If there is a uit that was about to take a lot of damage from ranged champs then it is likely RD. If there is a unit in a 1v1 situation it may be Stunning Repurcusuion. If none of these things are true then it is likely RD.
    The champion has to be over 80 nora or be a centerpiece of a theme deck to come out ahead in nora efficiency. The champion that gets refuted has half its cost returned. This is why you need to learn to predict when your opponent will make big purchases. Otherwise you payed 40 nora to make your opponent lose 35 nora. They will likely just be deploying another champion meaning that you come out behind in momentum because you usually sacrificed deploying a champion yourself to cast the spell.
  10. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    it makes 2 units go on cd for 8 turns. righteous deflection : let me play my black blade baron, only skeleton melee card which can deal high damage : OOPS REFUTED!!!! LMAOO!!! BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME!!!!

    I mean, do I really need to go on about how ******** this rune is?

    And in your posts, you are both only taking in consideration the IS players point of view. You have to assume that the IS player is playing perfect. Then you can look at the rune and say "ok is this rune well designed". The answer is simply no, since it promotes deck building with no theme. You can add refute into any deck, and it will be valued. How is that a well designed rune? Part of what sok has been blogging about is trying to achieve "different" feeling factions (see the cleansing emerald change). Runes like refute go against the principal. Another perfect example of something which is poorly deisgined, is conceal. Conceal has absolutely no counter play from the other player as well, aside from a few VERY circumstantial things. Luckily, conceal sucks ass, and is only useable in gimmicky trick decks. Which is GREAT!!!!! I don't want to play a game where an ability randomly throws away my cards.
  11. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    you cast the spelll when you don't have enough nora to deploy the champion anyways. It doesn't really have anything to do with momentum. I mean, it can, if you play refute like a noob. Assume that you play the refute when you have only 40 nora, and he has 100. for the argument sake.
  12. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    So a spell has to be Thematic to exist?

    Nature's Wrath doing damage in an AOE has nothing to do with KF themes yet it exists.

    I think I'm done here honestly.
  13. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Honestly there's 1 million reasons why refute is probably one of the worst concepts in design in pox Nora, the fact that, you fail to see a single problem with the rune is just your own fault for trolling. I mean, do you even think ANYTHING in the game is poorly designed? My guess would be no.
  14. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    You have only stated several reasons and those reasons can't even be taken seriously. You can't even offer a proper solution. @kalasle close this thread when you get a chance please. It's not getting anywhere.
  15. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    No. I don't like the thread, but I'm not going to close it.
  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    You don't like the thread? It's fine if you don't agree with me, but there's nothing toxic about voicing a want for design change, I mean isn't that what the forums are for?
  17. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    That is exactly why he said he isnt closing the thread.
    Tweek516 and DiCEM0nEY like this.
  18. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    The way that you keep using "assume" makes me realize how biased your side of the argument is. You're only factoring in the times when Refute is good, wheras Cinder and Markoth have been factoring in when it's good and bad.

    Assume that my opponent lined up 4 of his champs adjacent to each other, now I use Gale Force. Firk that's OP let's nerf it....

    That's not how arguments work.
    Tweek516 likes this.
  19. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    You are misunderstanding, I am saying that you have to assume both players are playing optimally, not just 1. Refute doesn't have counter play on the opponents side, which is one of the reasons it isn't designed well.

    In your case about gale force, you have to assume the enemy player is playing to minimize aoe damage. While it isn't optimal to completely split your units, a good player is aware of aoes.
  20. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    But there is counterplay. Unless you're implying that there's no counter to Snow Blind, Whispers of the Mind, Split Personality and other similar spells too.
    Tweek516 likes this.

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