Refute seems like a really poorly designed rune

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. Cinder405

    Cinder405 I need me some PIE!

    Your wasting your time Cydna. Let's just move along and pretend this thread never happened.
  2. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Thanks for the reply.

    As I mentioned in one of the longer posts earlier, refute is poorly designed for multiple reasons. But if the goal of the game is player satisfaction, refute is a more toxic card than snow blind or whispers of the mind.

    Snow blind affects spells -> this is probably the least toxic of the three (all three fit nicely into the game imo). Having an opponent miss a spell is fine design wise, since the primary focus of the game is deploying units and capturing nora fonts with said units. If we look at spells as sort of a zest, then it is fine for a spell to cancel another spell, it won't really impact the core design of the game.

    Split personality and whispers of the mind-> this is really no different than a conditional damage spell, and it isn't problematic in anyway. These runes both give players the chance to play the game, and have counter play. While they may create a one sided nora advantage with no counterplay to the nora advantage, the same can be said about any card, and that is a balance issue not a design issue.

    To play the devils advocate: Delay would be a good example of another poorly designed rune. However, there are a couple factors which make delay a bit more tolerable than refute:
    1. Delay is a gimmick rune, meaning it only works if the opponent is extremely lucky.
    2. Delay costs nora to use, and the enemy player isn't getting that nora back
    3. Delay refunds all nora used to the enemy player.
    4. Delay is probably still toxic, but since it isn't very good, it is less of a problem.

    Setback would be another example of a horribly designed rune, although again probably not as bad as refute for the reasons above. Overall, the rune is insanely not fun to play against, since it limits player interaction overall.
  3. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    You are impossible to talk to. Stop blaming the runes, improve your play. Learn to anticipate things like this.
  4. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I'm not making excuses for my poor 1300~ elo (yours is 1016). I constantly improve, and replace runes when I can afford them. I also change my skeleton theme (main) deck a little at a time based on what I have learned.

    I am merely commenting on a poorly designed rune because I would like to see pox become the most competitive, exciting, spectate-able, and enjoyable game it can become. Posting on the forums is a good way to bring attention to things.
  5. kalasle

    kalasle Forum Royalty

    Be aware that "poorly designed" is a loaded, value judgement term that does nothing to convince other people.
  6. Anotherblackman

    Anotherblackman I need me some PIE!

    Oh firk off

    If you got refute and post a Nerf thread... you basically got countered and couldn't recover cause what ever you needed was so key it abolished your deck.

    Fyi real is players only refute when they know they have the upper hand.

    If you got refute a "lucky loss "then you were a simple victory.

    There's nothing worse that having a banner or artic gift refuted... net loss of 30 Nora.

    The cooldown is equal to your refuted rune so pretty much once it's used you can time and play around it.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  7. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Deep down inside I know you think you're right, so I don't think you realize how ridiculous you sound.

    But i'm done with this conversation.
    Tweek516 likes this.
  8. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    You always bring up rating.

    Just because you brought it up, that's an old account. My IGN is aronxop999 (as stated in my SIG). Rating just under 2000.
  9. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Value judgement term?

    The difference between saying something is imbalanced and poorly designed is what I clearly said. Delay is poorly designed, and horrible. Refute is poorly designed and MEDIOCRE, which is unacceptable. Note in my topic, I didn't claim that refute was THE MOST BROKEN SPELL IN THE GAME. I said the rune makes me feel like im playing poker, not poxnora. Warwick from league of legends: a poorly designed champion, becuase his kit stops enemy mobility. It provides no counterplay to enemy. It was reworked into a more healthy champion. Dota 2 and league of legends, are the benchmarks for the most competitive non turn-based strategy games, and they follow very simple design philosphies. They are both very different games, but have continuously weeded out unhealthy game mechanics or fleshed out the game design. Refute is an old rune that has unhealthy gameplay mechanics, and it should be redesigned. I'm not trying to rock the boat here, i'd gladly listen to an argument as to why refute is the best designed rune in the history of pox nora. @Sokolov @Senshu @gamedesigners

    And its pretty sad that people keep posting the same backwards logic, such as anotherblackman: THIS ISNT NECESSARILY A NERF THREAD: i'm simply trying to bring up that refute is poorly deisgned. I mean, if I wanted to play poker, why would I play pox nora? I don't actually care much about winning or losing to tell you the truth, as far as my ego goes.
  10. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I only bring up rating to shut up idiots.

    If it makes you feel better, I was surprised when you were rated so low.
  11. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    People keep using the same backwards logic cause you keep replying with the same ridiculous logic. You keep saying there's no counter play when there is in fact counterplay.
    Tweek516 likes this.
  12. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    You have not yet said why you think that the mechanic is unhealthy. You have simply repeated that you think it is and attack people that say it isnt. People have suggested counters (Spellswallower, Tempo, Tainted Statue, The ST relic that grats HP on spellcast) etc. and you write them off because Refute can keep them from being deployed. Refute isnt up every turn, the cooldown that the champions are set to is the same as refute. This means when the champ comes off cooldown you know Refute is as well. Its like saying Late to Battle is a poorly designed spell because it basically does the same thing. If Refute blocks one of these you win in efficiency. Efficiency and nora advatage is what wins games. There is a reason that you rarely see Refute by top IS players unless there are high cost champions being used in the meta.
  13. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    because the counter measures are very few, and they only soft counter it aside from a spell block. Any card that 100% FORCES you to spell block as the ONLY counter is unhealthy. Let alone if your card that you deploy to counter it, say a 70~nora dark apprentice is refuted, it doesn't even counter it and it works against you.

    And you literally just explained it yourself why refute is poorly designed. "There is a reason that you rarely see Refute by top IS players unless there are high cost champions being used in the meta."

    The fact that refute counters all cards at a high nora cost means that this rune will always cause situations where high cost runes will straight up lose to the rune, and worst of all, they won't have any way to predict it other than to simply guess. If you are making the argument that the rune sucks, then I hope you are right, because a rune that poorly designed should never be useable imo.

    Late to battle is a poorly designed rune, but it at least is much better than refute because it applies a CC on a rune, not remove it from board entirely.
  14. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    There's no point. Fck this thread.
    Cinder405 likes this.
  15. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    The majority of spells can only be countered by spell counters. Thats how this works. When I face refute I DONT CARE THAT ITS BEING USED. Every time one of my runes gets refuted I slowly pull ahead. Refute is not a counter to high cost runes because it is opponent reliant. If I get one of my high cost units refuted its my own fault for not playing with that in mind. Its the same if I get my high cost unit killed because of Essence Drain, Doom, Slavers Whip, etc.

    You say that you cant predict when it is used but that is why we keep suggesting Spell Detect options. There are dozens of ways to know when your opponent uses a spell. Its how I deal with hidden spells. Its how everyone else in this game deals with hidden spells. There are counters available to you and they are not uncommon abilities. There are dozens of champions available to every faction and basically every theme has them. If you dont like them that is your own fault.
  16. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    None of us are saying the rune sucks. You keep saying the rune needs to be changed. We're saying no, it doesn't.

  17. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    The difference between other spells which can be countered, and refute, is refute's job is to make the game unfun, where the other spells, such as doom, for instance, give an added effect to the game which makes you feel like you are playing pox nora, not pox snore-a

    EDIT: for example, essense drain, doom, and slavers whip (actually I don't even know what the third one does) all effect on the board pieces. This makes the game interesting. Fireblast, maddening echoes etc.
  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I am reading what you are saying. Read what I'm saying, it does need to be changed.

    EDIT: and I also am frustrated that my points are not getting across to people.
  19. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    It isnt fun to have your unit Drowned, or Doomed or Essence Drained. Refute is fun to use. You need to pick one perspective and stick with it. Losing isnt fun. I will agree with you there. But you cant say that that something that is counterable isnt fun because you cant counter it when you have been offered counters but refuse to use them. There are hundreds of playstyles and ways that you can play this game. Many of them will run contrary to how you want to play. Imstead of trying to force those playstyles to conform to how you want things to be, try to figure out how you can improve yourself so that your playstyle works under contrary circumstances.
  20. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Why bother at this point.
    Cinder405 likes this.

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