Refute seems like a really poorly designed rune

Discussion in 'Ironfist Stronghold' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jan 13, 2017.

  1. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    I'm not saying that at all. And while drown is frustrating since it instantly kills something, these effects are all much more fun for BOTH players than refute, since refute happens off the board. There are a million things wrong with refute, but I guess at the core difference between us is I know what fun design is and you don't. If you can only find fun in winning, then tank your ELO to sub 600 and crush noobs all day, you will have a blast.

    Heres the concept. If you were playing a 1v1 in uno, and you had to choose from two decks, 1 with all skip the other player cards of the same color, and 1 with 50% skip cards, and 50% wild cards, which would be the more entertaining of decks to playing with, assuming that it was random who started first? Obviously the second deck would yield a more entertaining game of uno, since both players would be contributing, even if the game was pretty much already decided by X factor(s) before the game even .

    "There are hundreds of playstyles and ways that you can play this game. Many of them will run contrary to how you want to play. Imstead of trying to force those playstyles to conform to how you want things to be, try to figure out how you can improve yourself so that your playstyle works under contrary circumstances."

    And some of them shouldn't exist is my point. League of Legends example: I wanna play annie, and flash tibbers onto the enemy champions every single game. League solution> give tibbers less intial burst, more micro and versatility so that annie can no longer instagib others, but can still be effective if used right. Result: annie is still used and is still a strong pick, despite massive changes since release.

    I am REALLY supposed to be working rn btw xD.
  2. Markoth

    Markoth Lord Inquisitor

    This line right here is why you are having trouble convincing anyone of your position. Instead of weighing a differing opinion and trying to prove your position as superior, you instead have decided that you are already correct therefore everyone else must be wrong. Its an incredibly dangerous mindset to have because some of the most horrific events in human history have been caused by people that have decided that they know better and ignored advice contrary to their own.
  3. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    to each their own.

    Just don't be mad when it changes.

    EDIT: BTW, I don't run bonewing anymore, I run 2x tomblords thanks in part to @themacca, and I find him to be one of the most insufferable people on the forum aside from the people posting in this topic. But if you want to say I don't listen to reason be my guest.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
    Anotherblackman likes this.
  4. Cydna

    Cydna Forum Royalty

    Everyone else is too nice to say it, you're ignorant as Firk. One of these days I see you online im going to farm you and put 2 Refutes in my BG just to hear you cry.
  5. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Well. Randomly reading a thread just because I saw it had a recent post in it. See i get called insufferable. Hooray
  6. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    @ the original post:

    People who throw darts blindly and without skill can get lucky and hit the bullseye. Same with refute. People can hit the bullseye 2 out of 5 times they throw a dart as well, with skill and control.
  7. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    Design isn't the same as balance.
  8. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    What does that even mean?

    (in the context of this discussion, obv)
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  9. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    Hotdogs are not the same as airplanes.
    MaruXV and Tweek516 like this.
  10. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY I need me some PIE!

    He was saying how refute is not a problem balance wise, I was just saying its a problem design wise irrelevant to balance
  11. davre

    davre The Benevolent Technofascist

    It doesn't look to me like he touched on balance at all in that post.

    Your issues seem to be that a) there is no skill involved in playing this spell because the results are essentially random, and b) this spell is disproportionately powerful against themes because it can remove both copies of the one rune that enables your theme from play.

    Baskit's response (which has been echoed in most of the posts that precede it) is that this spell's results are not actually random, but directly related to a player's ability to anticipate his opponent's moves. This is a skill, and it is an important element of a number of spells such as Whispers, Righteous Deflection, Dark Pact, and more spells that you have not singled out as "poorly designed". Anticipation is a very important part of high level play, and the spell's potential to give the casting player a net negative nora balance if it doesn't catch a >80n rune means that, outside of the first 4 turns, this spell requires a very high level of skill to play well.

    Further (and this is my own argument), both of the issues that you raised undermine one another. If the effect of the spell is random, then it is not any more likely to take out the specific runes that enable a theme deck. I have played a lot of theme decks, and none of them have relied on a single rune that I run 2x. If your deck relies on a single rune to achieve victory, it is poorly constructed.

    Incidentally, this spell is also balanced.
  12. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    My point was that you do not have the skill to recognize the potency of this spell nor to properly utilize it. In this type of scenario when you use it randomly it might indeed seem like a random spell. There are three basic times to use it. Early game with a cheap deploy vs someone you believe will deploy an expensive rune. Mid game when you are over extended and feel you might lose a champ to a spell/equip assisted kill and then mid/late as to throw off power turns.

    If I'm running this spell I also like to run a Nora mine so I can build up to the point where this spell doesn't negatively impact my deployment flow.

    It's power is that if used perfectly you will win the game, if used well you will be at an advantage and if used poorly or unluckily you will at least cause disruption for your opponent.

    The risk is that you can mess up your champion deployment flow. If you do this and you do not refute an important rune it is possible that you will find yourself out champed.

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