Revamp Update

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Gedden, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. Gedden

    Gedden Administrator Octopi

    First off, let me thank all of you for the great threads and comments. There are quite frankly more threads than we could respond to, but we are reading as much as we can, and are also very busy fixing issues.

    There will be a patch tomorrow around 11am MST, downtime will be minimal . As soon as we prep the build we will post patch notes.

    The Good

    A lot went over very well. Features and abilities people generally really like don't get discussed on the forums very often, so I just want to mention a few in passing.

    The ability detail popups went over very well. Its an on-going process to completion, but its been generally very well received. One of the big effects of this is the unification of ability, condition and mechanic descriptions, which is a big bonus to the long term health of pox.

    The new flying racial abilities, Artic Flight, Sonic Flight and Dragonflight, have been well received. This was actually a big change as it created a more solid distinction between Flight (the ability) and Flying (the condition).

    Many of the new theme abilities went over well, like the Warcheif and the new Carouse, then again who does not like drunken dwarves?

    "Themes"

    There is a large debate surrounded this, but before we dive into some specifics, I want to point out that this term actually means something slightly different to different people. Its not really a problem, it just can make it difficult subject to talk about. So for the purpose of this post I am going to create a few definitions.

    Racial
    An ability that is on every unit, by race, usually within a faction. Racials mainly provide a flavor. An example of this would be Boon of the Undead.

    Classical
    An ability is on every unit, by class. Class abilities could be Nohkan Do in ST.

    Theme
    These are abilities that create a synergy between units. An example of this would be the new Carouse.

    There are absolutely combinations of these, and its also safe to say that that are exceptions for just about every rule.

    Creep and Crawl (CnC)

    From a technical standpoint, there are currently bugs with this ability that will absolutely be addressed in the patch tomorrow. That said, this ability is the source of much debate. Pre-revamp, this was basically a UD Racial ability, in its current form this is an optional Theme ability.

    The idea behind this was if the ability was optional, it would allow the spiders to be more viable in non-CnC battlegroups. Right now most spiders in UD still have access to CnC as either a starting or upgrade ability.

    There has been a lot of great discussion on this -- mainly that this Theme ability should go back to being a Racial, but stay very cheap so it does not hurt non-CnC bgs.

    Part of this does strike a chord with me, as UD spider could be seen as a uniform creature that has this racial ability, the same way an SL Dragon can have Dragonflgiht. From a game-play standpoint it may be cleaner to have some "simple racials". That said, I dont think this ability should be "free" and not effect the base cost of that champion.

    So I am going to give the UD spiders back CnC as a base ability, and we can all see how it feels. That said, I don't think a Zombie is a uniform creature to where Meredith the Rott should get ZA. This distinction to me is still up in the air, and I hope we have more debate over.

    Nora Cost

    This will not be in the patch tomorrow.

    The ability costs for the "high-end" champions is generally too high. I am currently working tweaking the costing algorithm, and I want to run a whole bunch of tests before I apply it to a patch. I also want to post a whole lot of the resulting data before I apply the nora cost update and get some general feedback as well. This will happen next week for sure.

    The good news is actually applying the update will be simple!

    .. and?!

    I want to bring up a few more things, but I feel like this post has gone on too long as is! Please keep posting your feedback and thoughts, its incredibly valuable, and has a direct effect on Pox. More to come!
     
    SireofSuns, Yelmo, Lauremoon and 15 others like this.
  2. KTCAOP

    KTCAOP I need me some PIE!

    As always, it is appreciated to hear your thoughts on everything and I will be looking forward to the patch tomorrow.
     
  3. Baskitkase

    Baskitkase Forum Royalty

    Wei tu geaux
     
    Combust likes this.
  4. Gwyndionnz

    Gwyndionnz I need me some PIE!

    Yay for DoG!
     
  5. Pedeguerra

    Pedeguerra I need me some PIE!

    I mostly agree, but wanted to point out I still think Creep and Crawl is too strong as a racial ability.
     
  6. Gorebucket

    Gorebucket Forum Royalty

    This might have been answered elsewhere, but I haven't seen it:

    Are champs costed automatically based on the algorithm?
    Or are they costed manually with the algorithm as a guideline?
    Or are they costed automatically with a manual adjustment of +/- nora where needed?
     
  7. jeeperz2

    jeeperz2 I need me some PIE!

    I want to just throw in Hydraxors name in this thread.
     
    Tarathil likes this.
  8. exiledtyrant

    exiledtyrant Active Member

    I think that Zombie Apocalypse should be made more accessible like it was but have a cap ( 5 corpses?). This should only be for the short term however. ZA has always been fun when it was abusive and lack luster when it wasn't. History is practically repeating itself with the 5 monster limit before you can trigger a swarm except back then you had to stack them. It's just not feasible to have all that out and then try to get a swarm rolling. The limit also helps with clogging up the board. I always found them to become a detriment after awhile because there is only so much melee space on a board. After awhile you are almost forced into sacrificing good melee zombie slots for crappy corpses or you cripple your already poor mobility.

    In the long term I think zombies could use something than another swarm. They are slow units that don't promote grouping and the faction as a whole does very little to support big formations. If it's not built in like skeletons or in another support faction it's just under performing. All they have going for them is stacking disease damage which can be as dangerous as doing a full fear BG. I think mutant synergy or some new effects that are useful across the board would be better than being great(and abusive) at 30+ swarms or crappy at 1 swarm per game.
     
  9. Morfeas

    Morfeas I need me some PIE!

    Draksar Consulate does not have Annex.
     
  10. Thbigchief

    Thbigchief I need me some PIE!

    - Not to nitpick...but I'm not sure how well received warchief was/is ...or barbarians as a whole. Jumping through hoops for abilities like tough, rend and sky lancer is "neat" but i wouldn't say it wow'd me.

    - I played barbarians when they were awful and not a theme and when they were op and being abused in splits. I can tolerate UP things if they are fun as long as they are interesting. Interactions and gameplay make things fun, winning is also fun but i can live without that too....but barbs are not very fun right now.

    - I'm concerned that people will blur the lines of being meta with fun or interesting. I dont need barbs buffed i never have...but i do expect them to be fun and if they must have a "theme" it should be fun. Please consider this when you scrap a comprehensive theme wide racial (clans) ,albeit wonky and overly convoluted , for a cute lil warchief module that feels rushed and out of context with the void left from the other.
     
    Sirius and StupidJerk like this.
  11. Combust

    Combust Well-Known Member

    Hey Gedden!

    first of all, i want to thank you for your activity in notifying players of what's to come and lending an open ear to the public! (something I never saw in the same way as SOE). i like everything about this post and i agree with most of it like the new themes being more fun, the way certain things like flight are more classified and how their are additional pop ups further explaining abilities.

    HOWEVER... the nerfs that many of the runes got during the revamp hurt me deeply. i can't describe how crushed i am at how you took out some of the core abilities on the old 150ks and made the deck limit for them 2, because they are no longer special in anyway. I considered them more along the lines of a hero, with distinct names and flavorful abilities. but you stripped some of my favorite (and hard sought after) runes like Korona (having to choose between 2 core abilites lifedrinker and bloodseeker, and also having pummel over oblivion shield and only ranks of pummel at that! how boring), and Sixul (i use to run him in my psychic/frost deck because he had psychic ping and it gave me an alternate damage type but those days are now gone and he's a boring fire spammer with no mental capabilities!). As i know these nerfs were somewhat necessary and SOE had implemented too many abilities per champion into the game, i still feel like champs like these (and not to name the many more, cough SHALLAXY you poor *******) have been butchered to the point of who the hell would run these when i can get a common across the street who does more at a more efficient nora cost. it goes beyond the old 150ks though.

    Many legs, exotics, and even rares were hit enormously too hard. my bleed deck that i can admit was OP at a time is now completely trash with melee beaters with healing yet not survivability or proper range to compensate for this. i feel gyped not only because i'm an old player since the very second expansion of pox that has invested much money and time into these runes, but because i was a fan of these runes and they were iconic to me. now i feel like it's too simple. you need to run some more tests on these awesome runes that need to still have some sort of value if they are at a higher rarity or why would anyone run them? but if this is the direction you are moving towards, being completely free to play with more dying themes than rising themes i do not count me as a returning player because i demand that if my money can't buy me happiness than atleast my fandom will... i hope that you reconsider the many nerfs and look at these runes near and dear to me i believe were overdone with cost and have lost their viability and/or their uniqueness and flavor:

    Sheoul magus (a mage with 1 range and has lost his core ablities.. this guy is now trash)
    Jyx the Shadesworn (you guys put rapid attacks and execute while trading stealth assassinate.. you made him a basic beater who is absolutely tarnished and unusable)
    Serkan, Lich Master (i wasn't even running him but he is iconic to FF FW and he is now laughable and no longer the lich MASTER)
    Demonvein Vampyre (no survivability! AND you took away ally so hes even more squishy... well done he is no longer fun to use unfortunately. such pretty art and iconic vampyre for the split faction user such as myself)
    Korona, Bok Huntress (speechless... she was beautiful and now she is shoeboxed and sooooo not powerful in anways because of the rushed pick of abilities and bloodseeker not being on the base is killing her ability to stand out in the least!!! catastophic.)
    Shallaxy, Trusted Courier (looked at him and i have no words except those poor voil users)
    Bloodworm (too squishy! whats the point of healing when you wind up getting one turned running this guy?)
    Elder Bloodbinder (have to choose between blood magic and Dark Raven Form??? how absolutely dull, she is always supposed to become a raven when she wants no matter if she dallies in blood!)
    Hekatian Bloodguard (the is 1 to max range hurt worse than you probably thought, because she is still expensive and has lost more than one base ability and her choices are extremely limited from what they used to be)

    on another token, other runes are now too strong in their place might i suggest you look at:

    Moga (i think you already know about this one)

    ST (i feel like many of their champions retained too much of their abilities compared to the nerfs on many and i'm still worried that their going to gale force/ ice storm me to oblivion... note crystal mastodon esp) i can say this because i have k'ento and she feels more powerful than any other of the 150ks because she retained alot of versatility cause of nokhan do update.

    Eleven strategist (always one of my fav, but now seems like its way to efficient and it makes me seriously question your "costing algorithm")

    THIS IS JUST TO NAME A FEW.

    So anways Gedden, this is not an attack on you or any of your staff but a plea for help and attention!

    I think that the players of old would agree with me and the new players too if they were clued in on how this game used to be. Again, i do love the direction you guys have in mind, but please please please bring back my favorite runes to give them some sort of dignity!! And i know its not just my factions ( i use over half of them anyways, experience with all) that need help, its practically the whole of anything over Uncommon rarity! You need to throw the old players a bone if you ever hope getting your game off the ground first, THEN you can try expanding the game to new players through fairness. i would hate to see this game go to waste because people's favorite runes were overnerfed.. i really do not believe i'm speaking for myself here.

    For love and concern for Poxnora and with all due respect,

    Combustion

    P.S. i hope you receive this as positive and constructive and you heed the advice and plea of an old player who loathed the days of SOE and has hope for a brighter tomorrow where the reign of new runes is replaced by equality,and nerfs are not to spite the days of old, but to justify the means of a better constructed today.
     
    Joker and DarkJello like this.
  12. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    ^^ Santa vaca!!

    +1 Sir Gedden. Updates are always welcome. Keep up the good work.
     
  13. Morfeas

    Morfeas I need me some PIE!

  14. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    Combust said:
    i can't describe how crushed i am

    Morfeas replied to the above with this link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

    He typed just a smidge more than that. Not saying he was 100% correct. But your strawman argument has been noted.
     
  15. Combust

    Combust Well-Known Member

    then i guess you don't have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy Morfeas. I'm a player who has a concern and is trying to express it without judgment from others with no true input.
     
  16. Morfeas

    Morfeas I need me some PIE!

    Game balance has nothing to do with Empathy. I also fail to see how I as a physical person am relevant to this discussion
     
  17. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    I thought he was defending himself from your virtually psychic/existential attack quadrant Delta Omega Zion skullduggery.
     
  18. Morfeas

    Morfeas I need me some PIE!

    You sound as if you imply I didn't carefully read the rest of his comment. I specifically chose to reply with that particular link to that particular quote. You have no reasons to believe you know my opinions on the rest of his post.
     
  19. DarkJello

    DarkJello I need me some PIE!

    Circular, fallacious, and presumptious. Trifecta of Dipshizzery FTW?
     
  20. Combust

    Combust Well-Known Member

    look morfeas if i offended you or something i'm sorry i just have strong feelings about what my time and money have gone to and also for as long as i've been a loyal player. DoG has asked for feedback so i'm giving it here in my own way. i'm not even going to say i worded anything perfectly but at the VERY least i got a message across and i hope that it's positively received and not seen as griping on an emotional basis because i very much do have logic in my reasoning.
     
    DarkJello and Morfeas like this.

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