Seism - When this champion is deployed, the closest enemy relic takes 15 Physical damage. (Nora to 4 from 12) I think this will make Seism significantly weaker. Doing 15 damage to the Unholy Tomb sitting far behind the enemy shrine is basically worthless. Other thoughts about Seism?
A good change as Seism has basically made relics obsolete. I dont even run relics outside of the banner anymore thanks to Seism.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they rework nearly all relics to be affected by seism? Nearly all relics were changed to 20 hp 0 defense so it could be crushed by the new effect. Now we are nerfing seism... Progress...
I know they made a mistake which now they are rectifying because hardly anyone runs relics anymore under 21+hp. Its a shame because SP has some great relics like Mangled Totem and Headshrinkers totem...
Seism is fine, although it should deal less damage to relics further away 1. Placing it within x spaces should deal less than placing it within y. Seism screening is also very real (although seism might be SLIGHTLY) undercosted. People don't run relics because of global SL and ST all kills. Literally the sole reason. Aside from the occasional front line relic which can't work well due to seism, although, those relics might be in a bad place design wise anyways. If deploy behind shrine relics are op, they should be redesigned to not be global, as I have argued in a previous thread.
what kind of matches do you watch? i see a lot of relics still. The only thing i saw is that (good) players adapted to seism being a thing by running cheap relics to protect the important ones, if they run a relic-heavy bg. for example, fw shields tomb or tome with 20nora skull, or KF uses the aurora banner, etc...
I wish Unholy Tomb was font-powered, so it would need to be deployed in a font. Instead, it sits way back behind a shrine doing its thing. Seism used to be able to get it if the FW player did not cover it with another relic or deploy a Mason's Spire. Sadly, with the upcoming change to Seism, a 5-hit point Unholy Tomb works just as well as a 20-hit point Unholy Tomb.
Yeah. The current Seism is opressive because it punishes keepaway relics like AoE or globals which I assume it was intended to in the same manner that it kills run of the mill pleb tier relics. I would also argue that it could ignore summoned relics for the same reason but that might be overkill.
Rather than nerfing or changing seism, provide more opportunity for counterplay - i.e. mason's spire - for critical keepaway relics
Thanks for making this thread. This is why I put stuff in the Crate, so people can discuss potential changes they are concerned about.
So you are correct that the HP of relics did change, but the main impetus there wasn't to do with Seism, but more just that the HP of relics was all over the place and I was on a consolidation kick. At least that's what I remember. So what happened was that with a few exceptions, regular relics have 20 HP, and traps/summoned relics tend to have 15 HP. The major exceptions are things like Celestial Spear and Dimension Door, which is both summoned and not and it's something I have on my list to consider/address as well. I am not sure where I want to go with that, but I do like that Seism can get rid of these types of relics (this will be a point of discussion as well when I discuss Seism specifically). Not that this is a complete thing, mind you, I know there are still some relics that are weird/inconsistent like the Altar of Votaev... mostly stuff that didn't really matter. So here's the thing right, even if it was the case that the reason for consolidating relic HP was Seism, it's still a good idea regardless, IMO, because having relics with HP of 18, 20, 21, 25, 30, 35, etc. was just mostly arbitrary and annoying. At the same time, the game changes and we try different things. Sometimes we discover something doesn't work like we thought or we want to go in a different direction, and that's ok. It'd be nice if everything could stay the same (but also fresh) forever, but that's not really how these things work.
Ok, so Seism. I am not personally 100% sold on changing it, but here are the major reasons: It is probably the most complained ability in the game since it was introduced (it's not THE most complained ability ever, but it is up there with things like Psychic Ping) Can't say I don't listen =P It doesn't really work as originally envisioned The original design was that it would provide some spot anti-relic damage at a relatively low cost, but the direction it went was high cost instant kill Which is fine, sometimes the design changes and that's how design works, but... The new design didn't really do people wanted either It rarely actually kills back of the shrine relics because anyone that plays those relics also blockades them or buffs their HP So the reality is that... It is simply extremely efficient in most scenarios no matter what it kills Thus, the tactical element of the ability is pretty lacking in that it's rarely a bad idea to kill a forward deployed relic with a Seism champ And if there isn't one of those and there's a back of the shrine relic, well, JACKPOT So what does the new design do? It maintains the ability for Seism to destroy the class of relics that's set at 15 HP because they are free/efficient It also allows, as DMR suggests, that we can reduce the HP of certain relics like back of shrine stuff to have lower HP It limits the ability's efficiency vs "normal" relics which now will also take AP or another damage component (could be another copy of Seism) to destroy Right now, it lacks the ability for this differentiation unless we just increase "normal" relics to 25 HP which seems like too much for most of their costs
Ok, so this effectively makes sense... biggest question now is what relics will be deemed 15HP fodder and which ones won't? For me, the skull can be 2hp and I wouldn't care. Skull at the very least should have a minimum of 5-10 nora increase. But I digress, should be interesting to see which "real" relics will be chopped.
anything less then 20 is pretty close to useless....as it turns it from destroying the majority of relics to barely destroying any. could turn it into a bounce effect as an alternative( easier to balance as well as most bounces effect have varying nora refunds and cd's to the runes they bounce), otherwise i guess to the box with any unit that has it.
Here's a better way to design the game. Problem: seism champions are rarely deployed tactically due to positioning being irrelevant on where the champion is deployed (1st reason of lack of decision/tactics) Solution: make seism champions deal less damage when up closer to the relic Why: this will create risk reward. Do I want to kill the relic (deploy far away) or do I want to use the chasmpion sooner (closer to relic). This would work even better if seism didn't have global reach. 2nd problem: Players dont like sit behind shrine relics Solution: reevaluate relic design(I'll edit after work)
So I think it'll end up being like this: Relics that can are only deployed via Spells or Abilities most of these SHOULD already be at 15 HP, but I'll do a pass Back of Shrine Relics Except stuff that decrements their own HP such as Soulsphere Not sure about stuff like Spell Seals Relics like Grim Well and the like will stay at 20 HP. The problem is where we have things like Watershed Anchor which would normally be set at 20 HP, but has a summoned version. Theoretically the summoned version could be set at 15 HP, but I don't really like the idea of them having different HP values. ~ Also, Seism will hit stealthed relics (whether or not the DMG gets nerfed).
I don't like this idea at all since it creates a situation where you have to count individual tiles and math out how much damage your ability will do. The game is already fiddly enough, and this type of design goes even further in making the game inaccessible. The lack of tactical nuance here that the player using Seism is basically guaranteed a kill and an effective nora trade. Positioning does matter if there are multiple relics on the map. Blockading to protect vulnerable relics from Seism is actually a very interesting part of the meta of having Seism, so that's an aspect we want to preserve. I also suspect that changing it this way also doesn't actually increase the tactical play very much as you are imagining it to because by and large, you are simply going to place the Seism champ in a location where it kills the relic. It just means you have to be way more fiddly with it. Killing the relic far outweighs the loss of a couple AP or else you just deploy a non-Seism champ in that scenario. Unless you make it a small AE with large decrements of DMG per tile, but then that just means it doesn't work against most relic deploys at all since it won't reach them. Maybe I am misunderstanding your idea?
