skeleton tier list

Discussion in 'Forsaken Wastes' started by DiCEM0nEY, Jan 31, 2017.

  1. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Here is the long awaited skeleton tier list by best human na, dicem0ney.


    Tier 1 (core)

    Elsari vex, dark rising, Tomblord, black blade Baron, broken bones, graveyard, bone circle staff, bone cloak, Skeletal excavator, xulous, bone mine, crossbone, statue of xulous, altar of bones, cleric of unrest , aaryo eye, bone circle archmage

    Tier 2
    bone mason, skeletal lerper, crawling corpse, bonewing, elsari bazaar, boneshredder, fallen draksar, sacrificial altar/soulbane, skeletal bezerker, mobilization, essence drain, despoil

    Tier 3 ( Maybe 1 per deck)

    bone slave, skeletal reaper, bone elemental, tormented priest, bone guard infantry toll taker, hoarfrost lich, tome of hate, stitched skeleform, goresplosion, throw bones, utterdark fadewisp, aspect of death, decay/skull of decay, snuff, bone circle, spectral emissary, animated blade, hoarfrost dragon, demonologist, unholy tomb , mystic altier,

    Tier 4 (I dont use this Bane Shift)

    necromancer, bonemauler , Skeletal sniper, lich magistrate, decaying mercenary, skeezick bone blade, skeletal raider, grekin, utterdark voidhowler, undead magister , demonlich, gravewatcher, revenant



    This tier list assumes the player is not using foul rite or venegeful, and is playing standard dark rising surge deck.

    If anyone has any questions or needs help, I'll monitor the thread, feel free to post.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  2. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    2/23 changelog

    All skeletons moved to tier 7, garbage tier.

    3/20

    Bone shredder moved to tier 1. Actually an excellent lerper replacement, when ran with sunder. Did not realize sunder was -2 armor per hit, actually quite insane. Also gains HP from dark rising, so worth having 2X again.

    Serkan tier 2
    Right now, this rune suck s. Supers aren't worth the investment outside of is bastion and a few others. I like medium-cost runes, and super cheap for font contesting.

    3/30
    removed all skeletons from garbage tier due mainly to rediscovering boneshredder.

    toll taker up due to meta changes, curroption is great.

    cursed temple tier 3 - really necessary rune due to Marsh song. Serves the same purpose as altar of bones, except 5 Nora cheaper. I really like this rune. Works well with tariff as a bonus.

    elsari voltray tier 2 - mainly due to boneshredder being the new lerper replacement, it's a great add for commander and curse. Units can hit + 10 dAmage with all the modifiers in a deck, and you'll have a much stronger front line to do it with thanks to bone shredders.


    animated blade and bone ele up - since there is a stronger frontline, you can get away with running an animated blade for utility purposes. Plus the flight helps since there's no lerper.

    altar of bones down to tier 3 - really weak rune when compared to sac altar, so I lowered it. I prefer cursed temple by alot recently.

    broken bones to bottom tier 2 (likely to move further down) - battle leader makes this rune a liability (ud, kf, is), and it doesn't add much damage. Outclassed by bonrshredder and graveyard right now.


    bone circle arch mage moved down- low HP units, especially summons, suck ass for the most part. Summoning grave warriors isn't something I value in my deck aside from dark rising and graveyard. Augment creation is much better on bone cloak, since u can choose when you need it and not be forced into playing a bca

    Bone mine down- same reason as above, low HP units suck .

    7/6

    Mainly moved cheaper units up. I moved bodyguard infantry, broken bones, and crossbones up a few tiered due to battle lose leader nerfs. Bone circle archmage up for the same reason + he is a healthy swarm counter, which is important now.

    Statue of xulous up for the ability to font contest. I sometimes, but rarely use it for an investment. 22 hp is a magic number when dealing with seism.

    I still basically use surge to win games, but it is much less hard counterable than before. I find crossbones to be a great cheap deploy with inhibiting touch, since he can be used to counter healing very well, or used to font contest in a bind, since he is actually quite cheap

    8/13

    Moved mystic altier to tier 1 (for spot equip and relic counter). Criminally underrated rune, and works well with excavator.

    9/26

    Moved altar of bones up, bone mason up (consistent alternative for toh), cross bone to t1 (best anti heal for skell) spectral emissary up (bone cloak life siphon is strong, but he is still kind of expensive) bone circle archmage to t2 (excellent rune, but does overlap with bone cloak and bcs)

    10/14

    Some big changes, mainly added many utility good stuff, and lowered their skeleton counterparts.

    Example, bone elemental down, aaryo eye tier 2 (detection). Animated blade down, fallen deals at tier 2 (shatter)

    Cleric of unrest now tier 1 for rite of regeneration, council spells. Shredder slightly up due to being a superior bone elemental. You can choose if you need cloak or not. A few things down from tier 1, altar of bones is back at t1 due to synergy with xulous and rite of regen.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  3. themacca

    themacca Master of Challenges

    Sooooo gonna explain anythinges or is this not actually meant to be helpful.
     
    DonK101st and Tweek516 like this.
  4. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Use higher tier runes to win games
     
    mictom likes this.
  5. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    reserved
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2017
  6. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Not every champ with race skeleton is meant to be used in a skeleton BG, such as Lich Magistrate. For the ones you said Reduce Nora Cost, what stats/abilities would you remove to reduce the cost?
     
    Tweek516 and DiCEM0nEY like this.
  7. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Lich magistrate doesn't fit in any BG iirc lmao, maybe spirits maybe? But thats ok, I know that, this is a skeleton tier list, and he is garbage tier in skeletons, just documenting it.

    The ones with "nora cost reduction" and nothing else, are probably so garbage that they just need to be made better. Most of the runes I coupled with some kind of stat reduction, such as bone ele and bone shredder.

    Blah, just ask questions individually about specific runes, theres a deep context to everything I wrote, I can't explain the pros and cons of every rune, and how I would fix them, just ask and ill explain them individually.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  8. limone1981

    limone1981 I need me some PIE!

    tbh thread like :help me with my skeleton bg are more useful than this.
     
    Tweek516 likes this.
  9. Somnolence

    Somnolence The King of Potatoes

    Anyone who would spend the time and effort to even type up something like this obviously cares about the game, and I think that the effort itself is at least worth appreciating regardless of the actual opinion.

    on the other hand

    Eh. Skeleton is fine as is. I don't think it needs to have improved support. I do agree that some runes just seem pointless or unbalanced to the point where no one would use it even in a noncompetitive setting (i.e. undead magister). The majority of the runes that the post mentioned, however, is fine as they are. If Dice "Living God" Money wish to push for rune changes like @themacca did with Korsien, I recommend making a much more detailed post for each specific rune that includes the proposed changes and reasons. Saying things like "A is outclassed by B, and therefore should be buffed" is a terrible argument because it tells the reader nothing about the rune itself and how it is subpar (if at all) when compared to another rune.
     
  10. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    I gave detailed explanations on the third post down on tier 3 and 4 runes. Also worth noting, is overarching design goals of the skeleton theme itself, and how they would fit into the game in a perfectly balanced state.
     
  11. Somnolence

    Somnolence The King of Potatoes

    A game that is perfectly "balanced" will just drag on for super long (kinda like chess).

    Your suggestions are not really helpful to the developers because they don't give a sufficient reason for a change. For example: decaying merc: costs too high for a simple block and meat shield. highly out classed. What does that even mean? Out classed how? By whom? Is there another low 40 nora champ who can receive buffs from its theme while having Block, 6 speed, and 8 attack (numbers may not be completely accurate).

    or this: Spectral emissary: Reduce cost, give him boost skeleton (since it fits with his harassment theme, you need boost in order to make bone mines effective). Reduce cost how? lower it's stats, remove abilities, or just lower it? Why should it be lowered? does Skeletons need another boost champ? How does another boost champ (an ability that does no stack) increase the effectiveness of bone mine summons?

    My general point to this is that many champions are simply fine as they are. I understand that your suggestions are mainly for skeletons, but think about how a champion's design can affect multiple themes. If you want your suggestions to be taken into consideration, having a more detailed post could go a long way.
     
  12. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl


    Skeletons are almost never used outside of their theme, aside from skeletal excavator and broken bones. They have much lower per nora stats than almost any other type of unit. Changing them will have almost no effect on anything other than the relative power of skeletons.

    Specrtral emissary: when you play a spectral em. you play it early to harass fonts. You then would use bone mines to help contest a font, since they are probably the single best relic to play on an enemy font in the game early on. Giving him boost would: Free up nora spent othwerwise spent on a tomblord. OR allow him to escape and still have some sort of purpose in supporting the skeleton theme further.

    Decaying Merc: honestly, this rune is just flat out garbage, and i am 100% sure the devs know it. The description reads, as a simple meat shield, he is highly outclassed. The devs know that broken bones is a meat shield, and that it is a skeleton which highly outclasses decaying merc. The devs also know that boneguard infantry is a meat shield as well. You might not as a new player, but keep in mind this was written for the devs, not for new players to read. The tier list itself (x is strong, trust me) will be more more helpful.

    However, I'll try to write a more detailed description when I feel up to to the task, as you are right, the more details, the better. There is more to it than just "a outclasses b", but it is alot of work to write it all down, so it was written shorthand to the devs themselves. I might not know all the changes skellys need, but I have an idea for most of what makes the bottom tier runes unusable.

    As for the game not aiming to be in a balanced state: first off, if the game is more balanced, mistakes will determine the outcome as will matchups. It won't necessarily drag on at all. Most players would rather play a little longer in a balanced game than play at all in a game with crazy imbalances. Thirdly, most champions are not "fine as they are" becuase they are utterly unusable. If you think "using x champs means you lose the game every time" is a great design (or balance in some cases) state, then idk what to say. I would like to see more varied picks, even if there will always be a core pick list.
     
  13. darklord48

    darklord48 Forum Royalty

    Nora cost of stats is derived from a formula. Skeletons pay the same for their stats as any champ with the same stats. Abilities are the distinguishing characteristic. Abilities also have a fixed price, but the synergy between abilities a champ has can vary.
     
    DiCEM0nEY likes this.
  14. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    But skeletons have undesirable stats for splashing / good stuff.

    Edit: I think it's low HP without boost that causes it, and I wouldn't even be surprised if skeletons were calculated lower, their stats are really bad.

    The main point, skeletons do suck when splashed, aside from the select few.
     
  15. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Every champ uses the same formula.
     
  16. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Do u know where the formula is?
     
  17. Tweek516

    Tweek516 I need me some PIE!

    Nope, we're not given that knowledge. Think @kalasle has a rough idea what it is by just analysing champs though.
     
  18. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl

    Is there a reason why not?

    Also, that's quite impressive
     
  19. HellGeist

    HellGeist New Member

    You really think toll taker is better than tormented priest? Generic range vs healing counter rune. Plus with afflict and soften i think tormented priest has synergy with the spell dark rising. Just curious for your reasoning. Everything else i agree with. Besides maybe Serkan. I still think he's tier 1. Procs damage increase off of the death of all broken bones splits and those graveyard skellys. Can even give him +1 range in a pinch if you have bone circle out if u need to catch your opponent off guard for 2 attacks instead of one.
     
  20. DiCEM0nEY

    DiCEM0nEY Devotee of the Blood Owl


    Tormented priest is outclassed by the relic. If dark healing worked more consistently, I'd agree, but he isn't worth the rune slot. Before, when he had defender, he was decent. Tolltaker has hex, which is strong, but more importantly, tariff. If you see a double kill, deploying a toll taker right before is a nobrainer, he pays for himself at that point.

    I could see toll taker being tier 3 though. He isn't that strong.

    To be quite honest, battle leader and swarm really make the theme unplayable atm. Serkan would be a higher tier, if the fact that battle leader didn't wreck him anyways. Not to mention there are plenty of counters for serkan. I think he is ok, but he fits better in other themes.

    as a side note, I think I'm actually done with skeletons, until swarm and battle leader gets nerfed. I might play them a bit for a change up here and there, but I moving towards a theme which is hopefully less easy to abuse.
     

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