SP just isnt fun to play

Discussion in 'Shattered Peaks' started by Ballballer, Sep 26, 2015.

  1. Ballballer

    Ballballer Chief Antagonist

    My tricks consist of:

    Double jabs
    Whispers
    Rock trap
    Whip
    Harpoon
    Lift on transporter(no one ever expects it for some reason)
    Kanen slipped unleash cruise missile
    Winstigator
    V push

    Some of these are a stretch to be called tricks, and most are at least generally able to be forseen by a competent opponent.

    Sp used to be the total trick faction. In my old decks there were so many things i could pull off and so many ways I could surprise my opponents.

    Nowadays my games consist of deploying a crap ton of range and just wearing my opponent down due to efficiency.

    Basically, back in the old days playing with SP i could really outsmart my opponents. Positioning was waaay more crucial, because you had to be good at it to really maximize the tricks you could pull off. Dont get me wrong, its still one of the biggest things separating good players from great players, but it just feels less relevant. Im using positioning to survive and get off attacks in the most efficient way i can. Im not really DOING anything with it, in that im not really setting things up as much anymore if that makes sense. Idk, but @Sokolov if you read this just know that Im really sad at the way SP has become. If i wanted to just outgrind people every game, id play moga. Theres no finesse to the faction anymore:/

    What do you think @DMrBadguy?
    Youre the one I usually talk to about this stuff haha
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2015
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  2. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!


    Liked for the "Kanen slipped unleash cruise missile" thing.

    I am wondering tho, what other tricks were you able to pull off in the past that you can't now? I can only think of the Swallow Whole Fesh and the Infest Fesh. I feel like some examples would help.
     
  3. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    I agree with this for all the examples I listed in my post on the other thread. Some of them were OP and needed to be toned back, but not all of them. Also, I don't think this is unique to SP. My old KF deck based on advice from TheNidHogg has lost almost all of its old tricks as well. I'm sure this is a result of toning back the power curve, but I'm not sure this has improved the game. Put differently, you could have an equally balanced game where every faction had a lot of powerful tools or where each faction was equally weak. We've moved towards the latter, and it's a bit less fun, imo.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  4. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    I'd be interested in more specific examples and how we can bring some of that back without them being OPed.
     
  5. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    My experience is people think the game less fun no matter which direction we go. But I generally prefer interesting abilities and effects, and now that I feel that most of the revamp problems on the OP-side of things and costing side of things has been resolved, I am focusing on making things more interesting again, particularly themes.
     
  6. Netherzen

    Netherzen I need me some PIE!

    Arent all meta goodstuff battlegroups basically bunch of highly efficient stuff with some mild synergy?
    The interesting interactions and mechanics are in themes.
     
  7. Nebron

    Nebron I need me some PIE!

    Nah we used to have ol'sok combos with half a dozen knockback sources/lightning ele, pull has been nerfed at least 3 different times and most of the runes that had any kind of interesting mechanic (ghern general, shallaxy, cyclo fesh) got shoeboxed after repeated nerfs. The only reason I ever defended lance addy being as good as he was is because when I used to play he was literally carrying the meta SP decks because outside of a warcry powerturn you have nothing. Half the stuff you ran in the deck was there for the sole purpose of setting up that turn but if you couldn't get the right positioning and they managed to kill addy you were almost guaranteed to lose the game. Intimidation and strength in numbers became useless once the stat system got overhauled to not use the attack stat anymore. And then for some reason we have AoC still very similar to how it was from the start even though it's a cancer in terms of the playstyle it encourages and has been requested to get changed since 2 weeks after it was released.
     
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  8. Sirius

    Sirius I need me some PIE!

    Inb4 Sok brings back Ol'Sok.
     
  9. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    yeah I haven't been playing SP much this last patch. Mostly because the past two expansions none of their runes have really been interesting to me and all of its themes have lost their uniqueness (Cyclops don't have anything except stats, runnable G'hern are those without Surge, Moga suck, Voil have ???). The only cards I really liked were Hyaenid Flamefist and Thunder Elemental, but Thunder Elemental isn't very good any more. And I can only play Hyaenids for so long before they get boring.

    Meta SP is pretty good, sure, but as baller said it's just using efficient champs to slowly win trades. No real big plays or cool positioning tricks like in the past.
     
  10. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    Not sure if this came through in my original post, but not trying to criticize you personally. I know from my own experience that working on a game this large is extremely complicated and you can't please everyone all the time. And any large scale change creates a whole host of unintended consequences and casualties. I do think most of the changes you've made have been significant improvements and I know most of the items about which I complained were implemented before you got here. For what it's worth, I do think nora pricing has been standardized much more effectively. I'll try to put together a list of ways to reimplement the combinations I included in the other thread while also toning back their overall power--something constructive rather than just complaining.
     
  11. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    That would be helpful, thank you.
     
  12. SaintKiwi

    SaintKiwi I need me some PIE!

    I enjoyed pox more before gedden jizzled all over it. More specifically SP.
     
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  13. Sokolov

    Sokolov The One True Cactuar Octopi

    Do you enjoy it more now than 8 months ago?
     
  14. BurnPyro

    BurnPyro Forum Royalty

    Firk man, no need to rub it in, jezus
     
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  15. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    Warcry: Personally, I thought making this race-specific was the wrong solution to a legitimate problem. That problem was that Warcry had been given out to a lot of IS and SL champions that, unlike Sceian, were not unique and could be put into split bgs, creating bgs with many champions with Warcry. A better solution (although I don't know how difficult this is from a programming point of view) would have been to make Warcry unique (i.e. no more than 1 champion with warcry in a bg) and/or make Warcry faction specific, rather than race specific. Alternatively, maybe Sceian could be given declare target instead.

    Cyclonic Fesh: I find range 3-4 to be an awkward range in general, especially on a 2v2 champion. Happy to explain why I don't think it should ever be given out, if that would help. Also, I don't think Fesh's range was the problem. It was his burst damage potential combined with his range and a built in anti-range ability. I'd move Fesh back to 4-6 or 5-6; remove absorb (since I don't really think ranged champions should have anti-range mechanics); and then put barrage in an upgrade line with lightning blast and elec aura (forcing a choice between aoe attacks, longer threat range for a double tap, and a pers. counter that is very AP efficient). I'm not sure where this leaves him price wise, but regen could be kept or more health added to put him at an appropriate price point. I'd then scale back the power of lightning rod by either reducing the range to 3 and/or scaling back the damage transfer percentage (if necessary).

    L. Elemental + Old'Sok: Poison cloud is much weaker than it used to be. I'd consider making Ol'Sok either significantly cheaper or allowing the ability to proc more than once per turn.

    G'hern General: Personally, I think General lost of a lot of his flavor when he lost battle leader and throw ax. Separately, I still think designate flagbearer is too powerful and very underpriced compared to similar abilities (it's sort of weaken spells, shroud and overseer all rolled into one, but for much less nora). So I'd reduce the power of desig. flagbearer by breaking it into thee parts: one granting aoe spell protection plus overseer 1, one granting aoe range protection plus overseer 1, and one granting an aoe buff ala commander or defender and overseer 1. To me, that's an interesting choice. In the other upgrade tree, I'd put battle leader, battlemaster 3, and surge: moga. On base, I'd leave throw ax but probably remove bold.

    Transporter + Fesh was probably too powerful.

    Transporter + Instigator : Personally, I'd remove Init. 2 and pariah. That allows counterplay by giving the other player a heads up, except for rare circumstances: transporter + sciean/warwizard or enough nora for alacrity + insitgator, but those require a ton of set-up that should be seeable ahead of time.

    Thanks. I'll think about hurler plus golem + paralytic strike + power strike, but those are probably too strong for too little set up.
     
  16. SaintKiwi

    SaintKiwi I need me some PIE!

    YES.
     
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  17. Bellagion

    Bellagion I need me some PIE!

    I'd never run General if this went through, especially if he didn't have Bold. I also think that although Designate Flagbearer is powerful, people tend to overlook the available counterplay: the fact that it takes specific positioning, the AP required, the restriction that the flagbearer can't move, the ability of the opponent to displace the flagbearer to immediately cancel the effect, the fact that the flagbearer doesn't get any benefits itself, etc. If it were Overseer 1 and only 1/3 the ability for the same cost it'd be terrible. I also tend to feel that you pay a decent amount for General as is, 80+ nora is a decent amount for an almost entirely supportive melee champ.
     
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  18. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    I agree that designate flagbearer isn't as problematic as it was before (e.g. flagbearer on overmind w/ 50+ hp, weaken spells, and paralytic feedback), but it's still amazingly powerful in middle font battles where the opponent doesn't have a knockback/relocate immediately handy and it allows one player to direct which champion will be attacked (very useful for setting up rock traps). My main concern is that G'hern General is a one-trick pony with no interesting choices among his upgrades. I'd prefer to see him given different types of supporting/buff options and force the player to choose among them. In exchange for that, I'd be willing to accept a less powerful designate flagbearer (which also forces player choice about the type of protection general affords). However, I admit that's my preference about how games/champions should be designed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
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  19. Raikan

    Raikan I need me some PIE!

    Here's a couple other ideas I've had of new modules or mechanics to develop.

    Gravity Well: If I recall correctly, only 3 champions total (in SP and SL) have access to Gravity Well--essentially a champion based version of Gravity Flux. I'd suggest moving this ability in one of two directions (or possibly splitting it into two different abilities). One direction would operate as is, but also provide the champion activating the ability with combat awareness for 1 turn. The goal would be to allow the gravity well champion to create opportunities for bombs or champions with aoe attacks to be particularly effective, without also sacrificing the gravity well champion. I don't think it would be too OP because it's already tough to position non-mobility champions effectively for a 4 AP ability. The other direction would be to make gravity well a ranged ability targetable on a square, but aoe 2 instead of aoe 4 or possibly aoe 3 (but with only 1 space of movement). This would be a form of pseudo ap gen (by bringing opposing champions closer together) and would synergize with rock trap, headshrinker's totem, deafening aura/zemi and aura/explosion champions like sapper/firecase/g'hern juggler. As part of this, it would be nice if someone revisited the programming on gravity well to make sure the units all relocate before rock trap triggers. Last time I checked, the trap triggers when the 1st champion is pulled in, but it missed the 2nd/3rd/4th/etc.

    AOE Deep Water Generation: I'd consider adding a few more water-generating abilities to SP, particularly those that generate deep water rather than shallow water (ala tidal wave or hungry mire, but with less direct damage than tidal wave and less upon entry damage than hungry mire). Deep water could be used to block of areas of a font and to redirect units towards rock traps or headshrinker totems and any water based terrain would synergize with lightning storm.

    Lift: I'd look at splitting lift into two separate abilities. One ability would focus on granting a unit flight and holding it in place. I'd then try to add a few more windstriker units and/or a spell or ability that grants windstriker for a turn or two (probably grant: windstriker as an ability since there's less surprise factor than with a spell, and so it requires more set up and more champions--which is up SP's alley anyway). I'd then split the relocation part of lift off and reduce the AP cost to move one square with a lift unit to 1 AP but increase the AP cost to activate the ability to 4 AP. With 10 ap, a champion would be able to move 3 spaces, activate the ability, and then move another champion 3 spaces (so it's similar to pull, but harder to set up because you have to close-in with a champion). Either change would require revisiting whether sceian or transporter have lift.

    Eat Traps: In the last few expansions/patches, we've been given a lot of units with deploy trap or grant: deploy trap (new cyclops constructs, cyclops ritualist, g'hern pyro). Sometimes we can pull off a pretty amazing combination with vicious harpoon and 4 traps on the same square or cyclops eye belt, but it's pretty difficult to do and requires several trap units all in the same place or several turns of preparation for one unit to deploy enough traps. So we have the traps, but the support side is a bit lacking here. Separately, we have the "frequently" used moga trigger, one of two units in the game with eat traps. I'd consider reworking eat traps to increase damage AND grant 1 ap for each trap eaten (similar to the effect of drive, but stackable and requiring set up from another trap laying champion). Alternatively, I'd considering creating a "relocate to trap" ability that pulls a champion within 2 spaces of a trap onto the targeted trap. With these additional trap support abilities, I could see small modules in bgs that take advantage of moga trappers and cyclops ritualists with grant traps.

    Relic Counters: Personally, I thought Seism was a SP-type counter to relics like unholy tomb/chopping block etc. But other factions got it, and it's been placed on a champion that probably isn't very usable (at least based on what I've read from folks who play-tested whirling stones). Also, after thinking about it, I'm not a huge fan of on-deploy or global effects because they limit counter play, so I've been thinking about ways to both counter unreachable, global relics of an opponent and benefit from SP's ability to have many more relics than a non-SP deck. For the former, I'd consider adding a champion that has "Reverse Reclamation" (This champion gets +X damage, Y speed and Z defense if opponent has more than 1 real relic on the board or, if it's easier to program, +X/Y/Z for each relic an opponent has on the board). The goal is to be a soft counter to unreachable relics w/ global effect. For the latter, I'd consider creating a champion that has Favor: Relic (5 nora on friendly relic deploy or, if that creates too much powerturn potential w/ totem/echo chamber, then on friendly relic destruction) and then, in an upgrade tree, Surge: Relic (+2 damage, +1 defense per friendly relic)/Relic Defender/Reclaim.

    I'm sure some of these would have to be toned back, but I wanted to throw them out as potential modules or functionality to consider developing and to see whether others had thoughts on how to improve them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  20. 0ryuk0

    0ryuk0 I need me some PIE!

    Sok, I play sonic BG in SP. And I've won many times. But, there's no synergy- though I kinda made a bit of synergy. Maybe we should add a sonic BG for SP. This is my BG
    [​IMG]
    So, here's the play..
    3 Deafening aura from champs. (2 S. Elem and Shallaxy) + 2 Deafening Aura from Zemi. It really hurts the enemies. I put the bracelets on the S. Elems. Tremor, 6DMG + Deafening Aura = 9DMG. + How many Deafening Auras behind the opposing champ. Whirling Quarry is a good combo with the sonic Elem. It deals 12 DMG at the end of you turn but risk of its life to go near the opponents. But, luckily in first turns. So, Whirl is 5DMG + 2 spaces knockback + Deafening aura = 12 DMG + How many Deafening Auras behind it (Zemi for example).
    Skyhowler for range. And has 6 spaces global sonic DMG +20% if you have 2 S. Elems on play.
    Arroyo.. just for support. With Suppression and Dread Field. Also great DMG with Dirge's Battlemaster + Banner.
    Witchdoctor for supports.. Hex and Inhibiting Touch.
    Dirge and 2 Dive Bombers for different DMG type to be able to fight opponents with 'One With Nora'.
    Kanen for support. Heal and Disease.
    And Shallaxy my support to play the T. Elem's Sonic Surge. It ruins my opponent when I successfully tricked them. Like, setting Shallaxy at the back making it look like I'm retreating but surprising them on my next turn with swap to T. Elem.
    So.. Just an idea.. I want more sonics! This is fun to play.
    And I also made a champ to help Sonic BG..
    [​IMG]
    Name: Peaks Dissonance
    Faction: Shattered Peaks
    Race: Djin, Elemental
    Class: None
    Size: 1x1
    Rarity: Exotic
    Text: Whoever gets near the light, they lose their minds.
    Nora Cost: 78

    Stats:
    Damage: 9
    Speed: 7
    Range: 1-4
    Defense: 1
    Health: 53

    Abilities:
    Attack: Sonic
    Sonicwave: Opposing champions within 5 spaces take 4 sonic DMG and becomes Illuminated and Distracted for 3 turns. If the unit is already Distracted, it also becomes Confused 2. If the unit is already Confused, it takes additional 4 sonic DMG. This damage ignores DEF. AP: 5 CD: 4 (Idea ability)
    Gift of the Djin: Dissonance (Target champion with race: Elemental or Hyaenid within 7 spaces gains Confuse until this ability is used again) AP: 1 CD: 2 (Idea ability)

    Flight

    Upgrade 1:
    Amplify: Sonic (Default)
    Sonic Fist (This champion has +50% DMG to champions that are Distracted or Confused) (+4 nora) (Idea ability)
    Defeaning Aura (+2 nora)

    Upgrade 2:
    Sonic Acolyte (Default) (Idea ability)
    Sonic Feedback (When this champion is successfuly attacked, the attacking champion takes 3 sonic DMG and becomes Confused for 2 turns) (+4 nora) (Idea ability)
    Surge: Hyaenid (+7 nora)

    So, just for sonic BG.. That's what I'm currently playing. I'd like to see this theme be played soon. It's tricky, though.
    T. Elem is not that good enough with high nora.. It needs buff.
     

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