Well, I have neither. But if you are playing a build up bg like Salaman, that require a lot of champs on the board and equipment being used and whatnot, your game will be slow. Maybe you are playing the wrong kind of theme? I dont know. Have you tried Boghoppers? They are pretty rushy and might suit you better.
Well, seems like you own the map (Fonts, means higher nora generation) when he's saving a lot of nora so 1st you can build a new army and play smarter vs his AoE after he casted it. Also, salamans always use a relic that gives you 50% of the nora cost of spell casted so 160x50%=80 so for building a new army you have a great start.
If that post annoyed you, it's probably more to do with the fact that you seem to try and blame the game for your failures. There's a lot wrong with Pox, but spellspam, aside from a few times where ST could combo silly ways and TC was dumber, you can't lose to it BY ITSELF. You can lose to a gale here or there, or a domination, because of the way the spell interacts is incredibly powerful and sometimes you can't play around it. But saying that saving 1 or more turns up to spell spam is a viable strategy to win the game is just false. Just false. It's good at closing out a game or getting an advantage, but spell spam is not a win condition. You seem intent on refusing to adapt to how this game is supposed to be played: space out vs AoEs, take the obvious factors into account (Gale vs ST, domi vs FW, etc etc) and play around them. If you are so mad at those little passive comments about your skill level that you would wish someone death, you shouldn't have spouted so much ignorance that after two bloody posts you still seem unable to comprehend the basics and how to relates to the game mechanics and spells. Gets butthurt over little passive comments, puts this in his opening comment. Just fyi, you're not good. I'm better than you. A lot. And I'm telling you that positioning and other basics ARE the point. If you don't want to spend all game taking the opponents options into account in a strategy game, you don't deserve to win. Simple as that. tldr you're a hypocrite and a bad player. Form a coherent argument in which you showcase how spellspam is a reliable win tactic other than "well you can do it all the time and noobs tell me it's wrong" and I might listen. Cause right now you're wasting my time trying to prove how something that has been considered OP by the noobs for years and mostly balanced by pros since the dawn of time.
What is your problem with me? You've turned this from a disagreement into a personal dispute for no reason, I didn't even start this thread! I have repeatedly stated that this is not the case even from my first comment, this is not a problem i am experiencing personally i simply objectively feel that the amount of spot damage that can be produced by spells is unbalanced. Again, just making assumptions. I am extremely careful with my spacing, even to the point where i probably waste AP spacing my champs unnecessarily. Though if you could just read my comments properly and stop jumping to conclusions based on the first thing i have said then i wouldn't have to explain that to you. I HAVE NOT LOST TO SPELL SPAM SINCE I CAN REMEMBER Is that clear enough for you? Everything you are saying to me is based on this incorrect assumption that i am losing to spell spam simply because i commented negatively about it in this thread. Again, more assumptions. We've never played one another and i havn't even seen you online in months so unless you are following me around spectating my games on an alt account then I'm pretty sure you have literally no idea how good i am at the game. Not that i think I'm better than you, I mean i've been playing the game about 2 years in comparison to your almost 10(?) years. Just looking at your account you've played almost 6000 games in comparison to my just over 1000 and that's not counting your alts so the fact that you feel the need to announce that you are better than me speaks volumes about you. Regardless of my lack of experience though i've gotten into the top 25 every season i've ever played since i started so yeah i'd say i'm pretty Firking good at this game. Anyway i'm not going to continue polluting this thread with responses to your completely assumption based argument against me, thanks for showing me how much of a **** you really are though.
You said you felt like I was attacking you in my first post, while I was not. You got pretty upset by my post, wishing death on me because you thought it was agressive. It was not my intent and I don't think it objectively was, so whatever. Then you also had that comment about bad players in your first post, as if being better validated your opinion. Which is why I pulled the rank card out too. tldr you took everything really personal and still didn't give me a proper post/argument
I agree with burn and pede about spellspam except when it comes to kf, st, ud, and fw (when i played it). Additionally, positioning becomes useless to a certain degree when they can drop aoe 4 and aoe 5 spells. Also, it can be super difficult to know what your opponent is doing. Oh yeah, I forgot SL. That faction has sooo much meta AOE right now that its kind of ridiculous. So lets say my opponent saves a turn of nora. i probably cant charge in just based off that fact, because its ultimately about 1 champ or less than 1 champ and I have to deploy to even materialize that benefit. Say my opponent saves ANOTHER round of nora. Now im getting worried. He has enough nora to pull off some nasty nasty combos now and unless i had enough nora to actually deploy, i havent materialized that benefit. But lets say I did have enough nora to deploy and I did so. Now i move my guys into optimal positions and spacing, ready to powerturn next turn. Crap. He just saved ANOTHER FREAKING TURN OF NORA. He now has enough nora to pretty much do whatever the heck he wants. He has retreated all his champs to the furthest extent within reason and maybe even given up a font. If I powerturn now, I wont get my moneys worth because he backed up so far and maybe just left a tank in the font or something. So now what does the game look like? My opponent has a buttload of nora and has designed a deck to utilize high amounts of nora much better than my deck most likely (hes packing a ton of aoes or heavy damage spells). So now the game continues with him having a "nuke"option and most likely playing a champ or a font down. If hes st or kf, my positioning wont really matter, because his aoes are going to rip me a new one. If hes ud, hes going to roll out with pov, boomerangs, fire font thing, mechoes, etc and may even sac/ret a few champs for extra spell damage. If hes me playing fw, hes going to cast despoil and then chain lightnings, anathemas, essence drains, etc to retake an area and get globes to mitgate the turns cost. If hes SL hes going to firestorm, acid storm, sandstorm, and use the myriad champ AOE options the factions runs. This situation can somewhat be avoided by good spacing and recognizing what the opponent is doing (unless its st or kf), but it can be hard to know what the opponent is doing until the threshold for spell spam has been reached. Sl has shrine kill combos that also require large amounts of nora. Many factions and decks field expensive champs that require saving nora. Furthermore, cerain maps can make this even worse, to the point that once your opponent reaches their nora threshold, it basically can spell the end of the game (youre going to lose a ton of champs in a very uneven nora exchange or youre going to have to fall back/space out to the point where you give up the advantage they gave you when they banked so much nora).
I mean, if saving up nora for spells wasn't worth the investment, then you would just run 25 champs instead and keep deploying.
Yeah im not taking one side or another here (it might seem like i am). Spell spam can be a viable strategy. It obviously has weaknesses too, but i have noticed in past years that people can tend to dismiss it without really looking at some situations and how hard they can be to escape from. So i thought id give the viewpoint from the flipside just to balance things out, since you and pede probably werent going to get a seasoned argument coming back at yall from a player of similar caliber
Ok so I guess I throw around statements about other people dying a little too flippantly. It just seemed to me when you said that about me 'not grasping the concept of the game' or whatever that what you really meant was that I didn't understand what I was talking about. You also only responded to me and didn't address any other comments from the 'spell spam OP' side of the argument which is why i took it personally. Ironically i made that statement about 'bad players' because i often find that people who don't understand my point or don't properly read my arguments will be the ones to immediately accuse me of being a bad player rather than even entertain the idea that i might actually have a point. I was hoping to avoid that kind of a situation. In regard to the argument itself, I agree with points of your logic but i think it's too subjective to ultimately say that being open to spell spam means you already had the weaker board. I've already said this so i'm not sure exactly how you disagree but i would have thought that you can at least think of a few times where you have been forced to compromise your positioning without other options. Many things can contribute such as the turn you start on, the draws you get, the map, your opponent and so and so forth but sometimes these situations do arise and i think it sucks to lose a game because of them.
This is a good reply. Just for the sake of argument, though, here are my thoughts (and notice, this is directed at newer players, not you BB - I'm 100% you are aware of what I'm saying next): 1) I agree that due to bg construction/map/draws you might end up in a situation that the spell spam is unavoidable and the "spell spam play", by itself, wins the game; 2) However, I can't stress this enough, it's what leads to that situation that really matters. So, for example, in your scenario the guy saves nora for a turn. Well then, you can be 100% sure that I will threaten him somehow, either by: killing a nearby champion to take over a font or a key place in battle; send a harasser somewhere to cause a disturbance; save nora as well (and this is probably the worst option if my bg is not made to captalize from banking nora a turn, as opposed to my opponents bg which is); 3) If he saves nora for a second turn, then my only choice would be making a move he wont be able to recover from. So, I'd likely kill his key champs on the battlefield; take over a contested font; move to shrine kill range. Either way, this is probably a key moment of the match for each player, and the deciding move probably comes here. Let's assume, though, that I didnt make an "unrecoverable" move. 4) My opponent saves nora for the 3rd turn: by now I realise that I will get spell spammed. However, this guy doesnt have a lot of champs right? So if I lure him into a position I can recover from, I most likely won the game, cause his nora bank will be empty and he doesnt have enough nora to outdeploy me. This is, of course, all very subjective and really dependable on match circumstances. I believe what I wrote is the general premise, though. The one thing I agree with is when spell spam is really beneficial regardless of the stage of the match. Example: when Fae Oracle was one of the best champs in Pox: built in spell discount, damage buffs when spells are cast and drawing spells. It really pushed the whole spell thing over the edge, because all you had to do was deploy that particular champion and your whole "strategy" came together. Also, undercosted spells represent a problem in itself, but its more of a matter of pricing it accordly than a inherent problem with using a lot of spells in a single turn. This is nice Pede for you, enjoy guys.
Oh for sure it can be a viable strategy. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that it's not a viable stand alone strategy. Obviously there's always gonna be points where you just wanna unleash spells. Just as sometimes you're gonna wanna spam champs. I never felt like spells were too powerful. Imo the nature of the game evolved rightly into: champ spam --> direct benefit to keep momentum. This is mostly spells, but relics/champs with direct effects too. It's just the nature of the game. If you nerf all spells, it will become equips/relics again, nerf those and it will become initiative and on deploy powerhouse champs. You just can't expect people to play the whole game long just deploying stuff in a balanced matchup as a win condition all the time. Generally, you want to keep that momentum going with other stuff, like spells. We can debate if some spells are too powerful, like TC used to be, or sandstorm is now (? not sure, not playing sandstorm in any of my decks). But spell spam as a concept is not broken unless the spell is stupidly broken. But that's like saying champs are inherently broken because Vindrax exists. Dunno, that's how I feel bout the things.
People: Spellspam can win games. Burn & Pede: Only if you're noob! Baller: Spellspam can win games. Burn & Pede: Well, of course spell spam can win games, we know that. Hmmm... seems Baller has the biggest testicals here!
Nah, burn and pede just get sick of people (usually low ranked players) complaining about things without understanding the counters/being good enough to execute the counterplay. They know thats not the case with me though, which is why you see a more measured response. Usually im in the same exact boat with them, i just thought id be nice this time and pick up the mantle for the opposing side to get burn and pede to articulate their views for everybody to understand.
I clearly said "as a standalone win condition" in every one of my posts. I thought that translated easily enough into "it's not a reliable tactic that you go into every game if you're playing on a decent level". Everything can win games. There's so many scenarios that everything, however stupid it might be, can win a game. The problem is that this thread was quickly evolving into a "this is holding me back yada yada the game is bs this way" kind of thread while it clearly isn't the case.
Is this where I jump in with my usual "Play IS we have are the counter to this and it will solve all your problems"?
There are counter measures to spell spamming, In fact some of my BGs welcome the spell spamming. I want you to waste your 40 and 50 nora AOE spells on my 40 and 50 nora champs. Oh no!!! my baby fur bulls just got spell spammed. Oh wait they lived due to being crystallized. Oh look they gained 18 health from being spell spammed oh noo the horror of spell spammers. Please I welcome KF and UD using their nora generating spells to cast more spells. I wish I could give you a discount so you can cast more. Basic skill to learn in pox is how to avoid the spell slam or take advantage.
